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Consider the benefits of Wirral homes plan (From Wirral Globe)
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Consider the benefits of Wirral homes plan
12:06pm Tuesday 2nd October 2012 in Letters
I WISH to write about the selling of the Ingleborough fields, not as a Tranmere supporter but as a Woodchurch resident, the majority who I am sure would welcome this wonderful opportunity for improvement of sports facilities which would cost taxpayers nothing.
I served in the last war for more than six years with service in France and Germany and am sure that if these men from the 1914-18 war who lost their lives were able to make a statement they would approve of this chance to move forward with benefit to lots of young people for a long time to come.
N Travis, Woodchurch.
Comments(35)
remember the past preserve the future
says...
10:58am Wed 3 Oct 12
uncatom
says...
11:36am Wed 3 Oct 12
Again you fail to mentionTRFC padlocked the field so they are in fact denying the use of the field for its intended use as a Memorial sports field.It is also their intention to sell it to developers,again denying its use as a sports field,TRFC allegedly purchased Ingleborough as a training field to give our youth the chance to play sport but decided that greed was the priority, bravo I think not.
remember the past preserve the future
says...
11:44am Wed 3 Oct 12
i rmemeber going there one saturday morning with my school and the game got called off because nobody could find the caretaker to unlock the gates
remember the past preserve the future
says...
11:49am Wed 3 Oct 12
oh dear not good old bean
wirral1981
says...
11:54am Wed 3 Oct 12
remember the past preserve the future
says...
12:01pm Wed 3 Oct 12
i understand the point elequently made by Ben Beaconsfield re memorial field etc. but as it is
i also believe the council are considering that only 88 houses be built on the development 1 for each of the fallen solideirs
ohnonotgaryjones
says...
12:33pm Wed 3 Oct 12
uncatom
says...
1:38pm Wed 3 Oct 12
If Memorial fields are fair game now how long will it be before other open playing fields are sold off? I see you make no comment as to the fate of Ingleborough as regards its intended purpose as a Memorial site, just as to its value as a commodity to be sold off to mainly pay off a bad debt and enhance a facility that already exists.As to a win win for all parties the main benificiary will be TRFC.
Jon4578
says...
2:05pm Wed 3 Oct 12
remember the past preserve the future
says...
2:12pm Wed 3 Oct 12
careful this thread may get shut down
Jon4578
says...
2:46pm Wed 3 Oct 12
Bert Nomates
says...
3:36pm Wed 3 Oct 12
uncatom wrote:I find this message the most tasteless and disgusting thing I have read on this subject. If an old soldier does not agree with your point of view he must be OLD and therefore, by insinuation, senile. My father served throughout the second world-war and came home injured and many years later died a broken man. There is no memorial to him and I do not expect one. All our heroes must be remembered equally. They are respected and are remembered every day. A memorial is, at best, a piece of stone; true memory is in your heart.
Mr Travis,
I am sure as an ex serviceman you know the value of keeping the memory of those that made the ultimate sacrifice in a special place.We now live in a world with different values, a world were materialism means more than self respect were the young can urinate on a War Memorial unchallenged, a world that worships the celebrity or the footballer,a world that no longer wishes to remember lost generations that gave their lives, and would rather pay off a bad debt or have a sports facility to satisfy their own personal agenda's.With no disrespect to you sir having served through WW2 you must be quite elderly and still maintain the values of "lest we forget"
remember the past preserve the future
says...
4:27pm Wed 3 Oct 12
uncatom
says...
5:03pm Wed 3 Oct 12
Nowhere does my post infer that Mr Travis is senile, and I take exception to your interpritation of my post.I did not seek to cause distress, merely point out that I have the privilige to spend time with many old servicemen like Mr Travis who remember their fallen comrades,and do not wish to see a Memorial sold in such a disrespectful way,my comments were meant to highlight the fact that old service personnel of all arms of the armed forces in fact all those civilian and otherwise that were unfortunate to have lived through World wars,are more likely to understand the true cost and sacrifice of war than a younger generation and appreciate more the meaning of lest we forget.
Bert Nomates
says...
5:36pm Wed 3 Oct 12
uncatom wrote:Can you therefore please explain what you mean by your comment. It makes no sense to me.
Bert Nomates,
Nowhere does my post infer that Mr Travis is senile, and I take exception to your interpritation of my post.I did not seek to cause distress, merely point out that I have the privilige to spend time with many old servicemen like Mr Travis who remember their fallen comrades,and do not wish to see a Memorial sold in such a disrespectful way,my comments were meant to highlight the fact that old service personnel of all arms of the armed forces in fact all those civilian and otherwise that were unfortunate to have lived through World wars,are more likely to understand the true cost and sacrifice of war than a younger generation and appreciate more the meaning of lest we forget.
"With no disrespect to you sir having served through WW2 you must be quite elderly and still maintain the values of "lest we forget"”
Why mention the gentleman's age? What do you mean by "must"?
You state that you "have the privilige (sic!) to spend time with many old servicemen like Mr Travis". Do you know him personally? If not then you are making a personal and strong presumption.
Finally, do you really understand the causes and consequences of WW1? A futile war fought for totally wrong reasons that I would rather forget. I will remember the dead, not the vainglory.
yogz66
says...
6:26pm Wed 3 Oct 12
could it be because it's a war memorial? and in being inscribed with the names of the fallen, does what a 'tablet' in a wall has never done....actually remembers them, by name.
uncatom
says...
7:13pm Wed 3 Oct 12
I think its a case of you dont wish to understand, and that you have taken my comments as a personal slight even down to pointing out a spelling error,and no I do not Know Mr Travis personally associating him with other old servcemen was a generalisation and yes I am well aware of the reasons for the cause of the Great War and the massive loss of life as a consequence.If I have offended you or Mr Travis for some reason then please accept my apologies.
Bert Nomates
says...
8:58pm Wed 3 Oct 12
Thank you. I have not taken anything as a personal slight but part of natural discussion. I do not want this to become individiual – but I am not sure what is it that I do not wish to understand.
As a Wirralian who has lived away for 35-years I have only recently learnt of this situation, specifically regarding the development of the land. Since reading this article I have looked further into the online arguments. It seems to me that there is a significant but unasked question.
Would this debate exist if Wilfred Owen had not attended Birkenhead Institute?
uncatom
says...
10:30am Thu 4 Oct 12
In response to your question which is neither significant nor unanswered,this debate has continued over a long period of time and these points have been raised many many times, this is not about Wilfred Owen although his name has been used by some as a promotion for their own ends, it is about Ingleborough Memorial Field,if as you say you have looked into the situation you will be aware of the controversy surrounding the appropriation of the land from WBC and its intended sale as building land by TRFC and this is were the main bone of contention lies at the present time.
addendum, its not good policy to point out spelling errors as thy can come back to haunt you,as in the first paragraph of your last post.
Muir the Merrier
says...
1:44pm Thu 4 Oct 12
uncatom wrote:'Controversy' ?
Bert Nomates, In response to your question which is neither significant nor unanswered,this debate has continued over a long period of time and these points have been raised many many times, this is not about Wilfred Owen although his name has been used by some as a promotion for their own ends, it is about Ingleborough Memorial Field,if as you say you have looked into the situation you will be aware of the controversy surrounding the appropriation of the land from WBC and its intended sale as building land by TRFC and this is were the main bone of contention lies at the present time. addendum, its not good policy to point out spelling errors as thy can come back to haunt you,as in the first paragraph of your last post.
'Appropriation' ?
No just a simple legal transaction that is open to view by all under the FOI act...
yogz66
says...
4:00pm Thu 4 Oct 12
what sort of fool are you?
yogz66
says...
4:03pm Thu 4 Oct 12
uncatom wrote:just like it did in yours.............
Bert Nomates,
In response to your question which is neither significant nor unanswered,this debate has continued over a long period of time and these points have been raised many many times, this is not about Wilfred Owen although his name has been used by some as a promotion for their own ends, it is about Ingleborough Memorial Field,if as you say you have looked into the situation you will be aware of the controversy surrounding the appropriation of the land from WBC and its intended sale as building land by TRFC and this is were the main bone of contention lies at the present time.
addendum, its not good policy to point out spelling errors as thy can come back to haunt you,as in the first paragraph of your last post.
you'd have got away with it too, if you'd not tried to be clever and point it out.
uncatom
says...
8:00pm Thu 4 Oct 12
A simple legal transaction! so pray tell me why has this saga dragged on for so long if it as you say so simple?
Muir the Merrier
says...
1:29pm Fri 5 Oct 12
uncatom wrote:Uncatom, your post seemed to infer that the controversy was how Ingleborough came into the hands of TRFC, that was the part of your post my reply was directed at, there is absolutely no controversy over this.
Muir the Merrier, A simple legal transaction! so pray tell me why has this saga dragged on for so long if it as you say so simple?
Granted the ongoing saga is seen as controversial in some quarters.
uncatom
says...
9:44am Sat 6 Oct 12
Was it not sold with the proviso to comply with the covenant that it was to be used as a sports field?and seeing as you quote legality quite a lot, could it now be said that TRFC are moving outside of that legality by breaking the covenant? in fact did TRFC mention when they appropriated the land from WBC that they would be considering selling it to a building developer? and whilst all those that support the sale of the land for the oft quoted "benefit of the community", and logically if this was the best solution would it not have been more beneficial for the community for WBC to cut out the middle man TRFC and sell direct to the developer.
Hugo1008
says...
11:41am Sat 6 Oct 12
How about a startling suggestion, remove all the financial aspect from the whole system.
Give back the precise amount of money paid for the site, To whoever purchased it.
Then set up a CO-OPerative of the residents who will be directly effected by whatever happens to the site eventually so that they and they alone can come to an agreement about the outcome.
If the provision of some new homes together with the preservation of the memorial can be reached, and any profit from the arrangement is used to directly improve, or enhance public facilities for young and old alike, then everybody is satisfied and every body gets something from the whole venture, that has to be a Win, Win, Win, situation.
Nobody has been ripped off, no behind closed doors manipulation is carried out, no body makes a profit, no body loses anything, and the thoughts plus integrity of the original respect is maintained. Once again demonstrating the total insanity of War, Greed, and Manipulation.
Hugo1008
says...
11:51am Sat 6 Oct 12
Remove the Greed, Manipulation, and Rancour from the whole situation let those and those alone who will be directly effected decide on the outcome, pay back any money for the purchase of this location, if the residents agree to some new homes, plus the preservation of the memories, and any surplus cash is used to improve, enhance, public leisure facilities for young and old alike, then everybody wins. Nobody loses, and once again the people can illustrate the sheer madness of War, Greed, Manipulation, and behind closed doors tranactions that are so unhealthy to any community.
uncatom
says...
12:02pm Sat 6 Oct 12
Well said your suggestion takes away the stench of deceit,disrespect and underhandedness that has surrounded this whole business.
Ben Beaconsfield
says...
9:09am Sun 7 Oct 12
Jimrob
says...
7:08pm Sun 7 Oct 12
Ben Beaconsfield wrote:It does sound like a step forward Ben and Hugo1008.
This sounds like a step forward, Hugo1008, and worthy of further consideration.
The ONLY problem with it that I can foresee, is that it is most DEFINITELY NOT the one that would pacify the Internet Trolls that have been attacking the likes of Uncatom and others who have dared to point out the FACTS regarding the original purpose and current legal status of the Memorial Fields and the duplicity of TRFC, Peter Johnson and Wirral Borough Council in trying to cloud issues, hide facts and even change laws in order to facilitate the self serving and corrupt actions of themselves.
FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL......
The Memorial Fields at Ingleborough Road were purchased with funds raised from the general public and others SPECIFICALLY for a Memorial to the fallen of WW1. Yes it is true that the "Fallen" in this case were ex-Birkenhead Institute pupils, but there could just as easily have been memorials set up by pupils of other schools but there were not.
The Memorial Fields were given to the Borough of Birkenhead with the specific proviso that it should remain forever, a Memorial playing field for the use of the public (The Covenants) TRFC "acquired" the field from Wirral Borough Council and accepted the terms of the covenant on the land and Promised to adhere to it.
Now that Peter Johnson has retired to Switzerland with his millions (Made off the backs of Birkenhead people) He now wishes to sell the land to pay off some dubious debt he claims the club owes him, before he sells up and moves on.
The argument of those of us that do not support the club/ WBC's plans is a simple one.
The land does NOT belong to them in the first place, it belongs to all of US and to the memory of 88 brave men who gave the ultimate sacrifice so that we could remain free.
On a personal note I would like to add that I believe that all 88 would be turning in their graves if they saw the current morals and public standards of decency of the country they fought and died for.
Jimrob
says...
7:15pm Sun 7 Oct 12
Why should the refurbishment of a sports facility in Woodchurch depend upon the sale of a war memorial in Tranmere.
And if that gets you thinking, then try this question alongside my first.
Just EXACTLY what do we pay Council Tax for?
Think about it.
Positive thinker
says...
9:51pm Mon 8 Oct 12
remember the past preserve the future
says...
12:34pm Wed 10 Oct 12
uncatom
says...
5:16pm Thu 11 Oct 12
uncatom says...
9:52am Wed 3 Oct 12
I am sure as an ex serviceman you know the value of keeping the memory of those that made the ultimate sacrifice in a special place.We now live in a world with different values, a world were materialism means more than self respect were the young can urinate on a War Memorial unchallenged, a world that worships the celebrity or the footballer,a world that no longer wishes to remember lost generations that gave their lives, and would rather pay off a bad debt or have a sports facility to satisfy their own personal agenda's.With no disrespect to you sir having served through WW2 you must be quite elderly and still maintain the values of "lest we forget"