Future of Ingleborough memorial field to be decided next week (From Wirral Globe)
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Future of Ingleborough memorial field to be decided next week
12:34pm Wednesday 17th October 2012 in News By Stephanie Cureton
Ingleborough Road field
THE future of Ingleborough Road memorial field could be decided next week – and it would appear campaigners against development are facing a blow.
Tranmere Rovers FC have asked Wirral Council for permission to sell their former training ground at Ingleborough Road, Birkenhead, to make way for a new housing estate.
The scheme, which is recommended for approval by planning officers, goes hand-in-hand with a parallel application to revamp Woodchurch Leisure Centre creating new state-of-the-art training facilities for use by the club and the public.
A legally-binding order attached to the submission would ensure the centre is radically improved with new office suites, two training pitches, a floodlit all-weather synthetic pitch and four junior football pitches.
Campaigners have fiercely fought the proposals, arguing the site’s historical significance should be preserved for future generations.
The field is a dedicated memorial to 88 former students of Birkenhead Institute who lost their lives in the First World War, among them the renowned war poet Wilfred Owen, who was educated at the school.
Eighty-eight trees representing the fallen soldiers were planted at Ingleborough as a "living memorial" to them in the 1920s. The development proposals include a memorial plaque to the 88 men.
A decision over the scheme has been delayed three times in the last year, Rovers also withdrew their original application in February before later re-submitting it.
In documents to go before the planning committee next Thursday, those against the proposal highlight the field’s memorial history as a reason for refusing the application.
A key component of the objectors’ case is a covenant preventing the land being used for anything other than sports and leisure purposes.
A statement issued by the local authority said: "The outcome of the planning decision will have no legal bearing on the covenant and any request to remove it would have to be negotiated separately with the council."
Protestors also claim Wirral Council’s position as main sponsor of the club could mean it has a “prejudicial interest.”
However, more residents have logged their support for the scheme than those against it, with the need for extra housing in the borough and Tranmere Rovers’ community work being listed as reasons.
Those in favour of the application, including Tranmere Rovers Supporters’ Trust, argue the sale is vital to secure the club’s future.
Among other listed reasons to proceed are: the plans take into account the history of the site and make adequate legacy provision; it would benefit the community more than a closed-off memorial, and that the fields as they stand do not serve purpose for anyone as there is no public access.
In recommending approval, planners say benefits of the overall proposal considered together with the leisure centre improvements are "deemed significant."
Comments(48)
Wirral_Man
says...
2:40pm Wed 17 Oct 12
I hadn't thought about the whole complexity though of TRC being sponsored by the body that has to approve or disprove their planning app and that bosy also being a direct beneficiary of the approval (by getting Woodchurch off their books).
You could say that is a minefield of conflicts of interest!
woodyres2
says...
4:23pm Wed 17 Oct 12
This is despite assurances from local councillors that there would be a genuine consultation this time.
Residents would like a say in what is happening in Woodchurch. People still regularly use the running track in Woodchurch, why can't that be re-instated ? Why does it have to be all football pitches ? So much for the legacy from the Olympics .... obviously not in Woodchurch !!
remember the past preserve the future
says...
4:29pm Wed 17 Oct 12
Tautology
says...
6:19pm Wed 17 Oct 12
If planning should go ahead, it will give out a clear message of how this council operates.
But! As a resident of 'The Wirral', Not In My Name!
May I take this opportunity to thank our Armed Forces, especially those who are currently in the Theatre of War.
uncatom
says...
7:01pm Wed 17 Oct 12
Gingerthinker
says...
8:30pm Wed 17 Oct 12
I just hope the council see the bigger picture and the benefits that the right decision will bring to the Wirral communities involved, Tranmere Rovers and the memorial for the local WW1 soldiers lost all those years ago.
siemanym
says...
11:33pm Wed 17 Oct 12
I hope that reason prevails and the best interests of the wider Wirral community are served by the outcome of the planning meeting.
This issue has been hijacked in the past to serve the interests of individuals, let's hope that those who make the decision are able to recognise this and not allow their judgement to be clouded by those who use sentiment to achieve their private ends.
Jack Boot
says...
12:24am Thu 18 Oct 12
woodyres2
says...
9:19am Thu 18 Oct 12
remember the past preserve the future wrote:I hope so too, but this is Wirral, and although everyone says "it's for the benefit of the community" nobody actually asks what the community wants/needs, and that's because they are not interested when there is money to be made !!!
Good balanced article hope Ben and woodyres are allowed to get involved in the next stage of any planning on either development if they get the go ahead
Good positive comments from most, and I hope the Globe will continue to follow this story as planning permission is given, which I have no doubt it will be, and then the progress of the development at Woodchurch.
Positive thinker
says...
11:34am Thu 18 Oct 12
approval,stick that in your pipe
and smoke it Dean
Jack Boot
says...
11:55am Thu 18 Oct 12
remember the past preserve the future
says...
12:06pm Thu 18 Oct 12
back to the main improtant points.
woody res how many people still use the track.each week.
woodyres2
says...
2:05pm Thu 18 Oct 12
remember the past preserve the future wrote:I don't have an accurate figure, but whenever I am down there walking the dog ( which I won't be able to do when Tranmere take over ! ) there are at least 3 or 4 people running around it. The local junior football team use it as part of their training.
the more his name gets mentioned and his sell out shows to 75 people in heswall hall get thrown in spuriously too of course he will be happy. back to the main improtant points. woody res how many people still use the track.each week.
Other than the track at the Oval, I can't think of any other public running tracks available to the public. So, I think there is a need for it.
remember the past preserve the future
says...
2:29pm Thu 18 Oct 12
has your dog ever picked up any of the viking bones??????
when it comes off walk the dog down to the field between woodchurch and st michaels??????
deadly_sub
says...
2:45pm Thu 18 Oct 12
1. There are not 88 trees and none of them are poplars. However the planning dept have recommended that any trees lost are replaced with suitable species. Additional trees will also be planted.
2. The Woodchurch development will fence off some of the fields, but there will still be plenty of open space & access will remain to the woodland near the motorway.
Lurkinhead
says...
6:41pm Thu 18 Oct 12
uncatom wrote:Hey Uncatom,
I am suprised they did'nt leave decision time till the 11th November, just to add to the final insult, lets hope somebody realises far from TRFC promoting Wirral this decision will bring shame on Wirral.
Pensioners in for a fiver at home to Preston a week on Saturday ..........
Go on, you know you want to!
Incidentally, the same discounts apply for current & ex service men & women too, and there's a collection for the poppy appeal.
Come down & revel in the success at your community club, and why not bring Ben B, Bickyboy & Ordinary Personn too - everyone's welcome!
I believe Dean Johnson's doubtful though - I heard he has a prior engagement at a photo-shoot, looking mournful in front of some railings or something. Hey, if the pictures aren't up to scratch, he can always photoshop them, for symbolic purposes only of course. He's good at that! ;-)
Positive thinker
says...
12:20pm Fri 19 Oct 12
refurbished and resighted in the front garden of the show house,it would be a nice gesture if that house was offered to Dean and all this could be put
Behind both parties
remember the past preserve the future
says...
1:14pm Fri 19 Oct 12
i like the sound of that idea.
remember the past preserve the future
says...
12:03pm Sat 20 Oct 12
hes going to be that streetkid who stands up to authority but its the business man whos got the 24 kilos. its going to be a kind of operatic tragedy
Positive thinker
says...
3:08pm Sat 20 Oct 12
to organise a protest
bickyboy
says...
7:21pm Sat 20 Oct 12
Lurkinhead wrote:I'll be there this coming Tuesday, Lurkin, even though the fools lost today to lowly Bournemouth. I want to see the backlash. Might even sit in the Kop with the kids and give the ref and the opposing goalie a few tasty Wirral phrases. I wonder if the place will be packed as usual with Liverpool and Everton supporters, wearing their first choice of kit?
uncatom wrote:Hey Uncatom,
I am suprised they did'nt leave decision time till the 11th November, just to add to the final insult, lets hope somebody realises far from TRFC promoting Wirral this decision will bring shame on Wirral.
Pensioners in for a fiver at home to Preston a week on Saturday ..........
Go on, you know you want to!
Incidentally, the same discounts apply for current & ex service men & women too, and there's a collection for the poppy appeal.
Come down & revel in the success at your community club, and why not bring Ben B, Bickyboy & Ordinary Personn too - everyone's welcome!
I believe Dean Johnson's doubtful though - I heard he has a prior engagement at a photo-shoot, looking mournful in front of some railings or something. Hey, if the pictures aren't up to scratch, he can always photoshop them, for symbolic purposes only of course. He's good at that! ;-)
I think this is now a fait accompli, but I would ask the council to make one concession to common sense, especially in the current economic climate. If TRFC sell this land at a vast profit, which seems likely, then WBC should withhold the next sponsorship payment as a mutual acknowledgement of...errr..financial realities.
Jack Boot
says...
2:43am Sun 21 Oct 12
Lurkinhead
says...
8:57am Sun 21 Oct 12
Glad to hear you will be in attendance next Tuesday. I'll look out for you, as I assume you'll be the one wearing the Dean Johnson tee-shirt?
Yes, a disappointing result yesterday, as your acerbic analysis points out, but fair play to you, I've dished it a bit of banter on here over the years, so am happy to acknowledge your barb in the spirit it was intended.
Kids in for a quid on Tuesday by the way, so a good initiative by the club to coincide with the half-term holidays - hopefully we can get a few more bums on seats, even if we have to put up with some juvenile messing about (from the kids I mean Bicky, not from you!).
Anyway, I hope you enjoy the match, and here's hoping Bournemouth was just a blip.
Any of the others coming btw? I'll be a little cautious of your leader himself though, as I believe some of his smelling preferences are a bit dubious, well if his facebook page is to be believed anyway :-)
Personally, I don't even know what freebase cocaine is, but maybe that's a generational thing!
bickyboy
says...
9:52am Sun 21 Oct 12
Little confession from me, just between you and I: I'd never heard of Ingleborough until it hit the news, and like all good part-time trolls I waited to see which way the prevailing wind blew in the discussions then blew the other way, just for a bit of fun, like. Strange things was that in the course of the discussion I realised that there was legitimacy on both sides of the argument, but more so, IMO, in the long term view that war memorials are of far greater moral (if not material)value to future generations than more bliddy concrete, tarmac and mortar, and CERTAINLY more than bliddy short term profit. Those sacrifices of the past helped to shape our present and our future, and it's not good enough to say that we can just move these things around whenever it suits us because there's money in it. Maybe the 88, were it possible to poll them from beyond the grave would opt for the housing development as long as their names were preserved in some form or other, who knows; but what matters right now is that some living people are willing to speak, if not necessarily for them then for what they stood for, and to me that message is DEFINITELY more crucial to the survival of the human race than any the provision of yet more overpriced housing. Unless of course this development would consist entirely of so called "low cost" housing, in which case I might be persuaded that the motives behind it more closely identify with the spirit of "for the greater good" represented by war memorials.
Good luck to the Rovers on Tuesday; if I don't make it because my DJ T shirt is in the wash, please say hello to the legions of Liverpool and Everton fans for me, won't you?.
remember the past preserve the future
says...
10:07am Sun 21 Oct 12
maybe as part of the relocation of the memorial stone something should be done about naming ALL 88 of them.
the fallen gave their lives so future generations should have their freedoms.
i know lets give them that by knocking down the fences at ingleboroughand making it an open space.
this living in the past mentality makes me want to reach for the freebase
Lurkinhead
says...
10:30am Sun 21 Oct 12
"Ho Ho Ho" .............
You had me worried there for a minute, as I thought you may have been Bad Santa! :-0
Hey, you are loving that Liverpool & Everton fans thing don't you? Am I supposed to be offended or something? Everyone is welcome at Wirral's community club Bicky - it's a free country after all, and I don't think Tranmere Rovers require an oath of allegiance at the turnstiles.
Anyway, you seem a little rattled this morning Sir, is everything alright?
On a serious note, I fully acknowledge, as you do, that there is legitimacy on both sides of this argument, and I fully support your right to take a particular view, even if I choose to personally disagree with you.
However, I'm less impressed with some contributors to this debate's claims of knowing what The Fallen would have thought about a 21st century planning application. Such speculation is subjective, emotive and disingenuous, and obstructs rationale debate.
Anyway, what will be will be I guess, and the planning application will ultimately be successful or it won't, and there's nowt much you or I can do about that either way!
TRFC4LIFE
says...
4:07pm Sun 21 Oct 12
Lurkinhead
says...
5:25pm Sun 21 Oct 12
"Many of the houses surrounding the Ingleborough Road Memorial Playing Fields are now displaying our campaign posters. This shows that there is not 'Overwhelming' support for the development plans."
As it was a nice sunny afternoon today, I had a leisurely walk around the entire Tranmere Hall Estate, and counted a total of 10 posters displayed. To be fair, I was slightly surprised that there were that many if I'm being honest.
Now, of course the assumption can't be made that the vast majority of residences on the estate support the proposals because they don't display one of these posters, but with respect, I do think claiming "many" houses is a bit of an exaggeration by Dean Johnson, and doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.
Similarly, in the Globe article:
http://www.wirralglo
be.co.uk/news/999652
3.The_fight_for_Ingl
eborough_field_will_
continue___Dean_John
son/
which has the comments disabled (which is curious in itself), Dean Johnson is quoted as saying:
" To say that all residents are in favour of the plans is simply not true – it is far from unanimous. They do not want it but they are scared to disagree for fear that they will become neighbours of a floodlit training ground.
It is not fair or right to say that Tranmere Rovers have the backing of all local people."
Now apart from the ludicrous suggestion that neighbours are scared, Dean Johnson has objected to a claim that, as far as I know anyway, has at no time been made. Unless I am mistaken, no source or interested party, has ever stated that ALL residents are in favour of the development, as this is palpably not the case.
Even the most avid supporter of the planning development must realistically concede that there is some opposition, and it is a matter of speculation as to what degree that exists.
Therefore, I don't understand why Dean Johnson would object to a claim that doesn't exist, other than perhaps in an attempt to misrepresent the position of others, in order to give credence to his own agenda.
Whilst the man is as entitled to his beliefs as anybody else, I sometimes think his tactics are at times akin to Quixotic tilting at windmills, and frankly, setting a bizarre false opposition seems a little desperate, to me anyway..
bickyboy
says...
5:58pm Mon 22 Oct 12
remember the past preserve the future wrote:No idea where the names are sited. I told you, I'm a troll.
bicky remind where on ingleborough the names of ther 88 fallen are currently sited?
maybe as part of the relocation of the memorial stone something should be done about naming ALL 88 of them.
the fallen gave their lives so future generations should have their freedoms.
i know lets give them that by knocking down the fences at ingleboroughand making it an open space.
this living in the past mentality makes me want to reach for the freebase
Yes, I'm all in favour of naming all 88 of them, and no doubt those 88 would have been right behind the idea that ALL opinions should be respected but that the greater good should be served in the end. Is the greater good to be served by bricks, mortar and profit, or by the preservation in historical aspic of a site which I believe is underused? Clearly we are here to discuss it, but others will decide.
Without remembrance of the past, the future is doomed to be littered with the same mistakes as those which have gone before. Not necessarily an argument for preserving all war memorials, but certainly a starting point for the principle that we should ensure that future generations are able--if they wish--to pay homage to those who gave us our freedom to have this and other discussions.
bickyboy
says...
6:08pm Mon 22 Oct 12
Lurkinhead wrote:Are you "rattled" by my mention of Liverpool and Everton supporters attending TRFC games, Lurkin? If you are, you shouldn't be. It was just my little joke, and as you say yourself, what does it matter whose money they take at the turnstiles? Still, maybe they should at least have the courtesy to adopt the outward appearance of Tranmere supporters while they're at the ground.
Hi again The Bickmeister,
"Ho Ho Ho" .............
You had me worried there for a minute, as I thought you may have been Bad Santa! :-0
Hey, you are loving that Liverpool & Everton fans thing don't you? Am I supposed to be offended or something? Everyone is welcome at Wirral's community club Bicky - it's a free country after all, and I don't think Tranmere Rovers require an oath of allegiance at the turnstiles.
Anyway, you seem a little rattled this morning Sir, is everything alright?
On a serious note, I fully acknowledge, as you do, that there is legitimacy on both sides of this argument, and I fully support your right to take a particular view, even if I choose to personally disagree with you.
However, I'm less impressed with some contributors to this debate's claims of knowing what The Fallen would have thought about a 21st century planning application. Such speculation is subjective, emotive and disingenuous, and obstructs rationale debate.
Anyway, what will be will be I guess, and the planning application will ultimately be successful or it won't, and there's nowt much you or I can do about that either way!
Your mention of rattles reminds me of a former contributor to these threads...his name was 2422...something or other. He tended to adopt a cheerfully conciliatory tone for the most part, punctuated by the occasional use of the device of suggesting that other posters might be losing their cool; the implication being, presumably, that his posts were so darned good that they were impossible to argue with. Are you and he at all related?
The only "rattles" I've seen around here, Lurkin, have been thrown out of prams during these discussions!
Lurkinhead
says...
6:31pm Mon 22 Oct 12
Admirable persistence with it though Sir, in the forlorn hope of tempting a bite! :-)
You still going tomorrow btw? Must admit, I'm a bit nervous now the new loan fella is out injured, as well as Akpa Akpro, Thompson, probably Robbo & possibly Bell Baggie. The injuries are starting to mount up in an already thin squad, so a real test awaits - let's hope Ronnie can weave his magic, as we are not a million miles away, there is no doubt about that.
Back to Ingleborough, care to comment on your leader's claims that 10 residences out of a total of however many there are on the Tranmere Hall Estate constitutes "many", or maybe why he observes that it is wrong to claim that ALL residents support the proposed development, when in reality, nobody has claimed that anyway?
Seems to me that Dean Johnson hasn't really helped your cause bickyboy, except I forgot it's not your cause as you now claim. You're not related are you? ;-)
uncatom
says...
8:42pm Mon 22 Oct 12
You are quite right DJ appears to do more harm than good, but the same can be said for a number of TRFC supporters whom subscribe to these posts,the distasteful side of this sale is the way the field was appropriated on the premis that it would be used as a training field, than low and behold after being praised as being ideal has suddenly become unsuitable, I think more to do with the stench of filthy lucre being inhaled than any thought for the community or for the site as a Memorial, lets not kid ourselves, there will only be two beneficiaries and thats TRFC and the tax exile,sounds sordid dont it?
Tautology
says...
10:04pm Mon 22 Oct 12
uncatom wrote:The Tax Exile has 7.000+ supporters.
Good evening Lurkin,
You are quite right DJ appears to do more harm than good, but the same can be said for a number of TRFC supporters whom subscribe to these posts,the distasteful side of this sale is the way the field was appropriated on the premis that it would be used as a training field, than low and behold after being praised as being ideal has suddenly become unsuitable, I think more to do with the stench of filthy lucre being inhaled than any thought for the community or for the site as a Memorial, lets not kid ourselves, there will only be two beneficiaries and thats TRFC and the tax exile,sounds sordid dont it?
Let's not forget the Sponsors too! The same people who will be granting the planning permission!
A very shrewd businessman indeed.
Yes uncatom, sordid!
remember the past preserve the future
says...
10:33pm Mon 22 Oct 12
remember the past preserve the future
says...
10:37pm Mon 22 Oct 12
woodyres2
says...
8:54am Tue 23 Oct 12
Lurkinhead wrote:Oh Dear Lurkinhead .... on another recent story concerning comments from Ben Harrison I commented about the poor public consultation which TRFC undertook about the Woodchurch development, and no consultation at all for the revised plans.
I noticed on Dean Johnson's website the other day that there was an article stating: "Many of the houses surrounding the Ingleborough Road Memorial Playing Fields are now displaying our campaign posters. This shows that there is not 'Overwhelming' support for the development plans." As it was a nice sunny afternoon today, I had a leisurely walk around the entire Tranmere Hall Estate, and counted a total of 10 posters displayed. To be fair, I was slightly surprised that there were that many if I'm being honest. Now, of course the assumption can't be made that the vast majority of residences on the estate support the proposals because they don't display one of these posters, but with respect, I do think claiming "many" houses is a bit of an exaggeration by Dean Johnson, and doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Similarly, in the Globe article: http://www.wirralglo be.co.uk/news/999652 3.The_fight_for_Ingl eborough_field_will_ continue___Dean_John son/ which has the comments disabled (which is curious in itself), Dean Johnson is quoted as saying: " To say that all residents are in favour of the plans is simply not true – it is far from unanimous. They do not want it but they are scared to disagree for fear that they will become neighbours of a floodlit training ground. It is not fair or right to say that Tranmere Rovers have the backing of all local people." Now apart from the ludicrous suggestion that neighbours are scared, Dean Johnson has objected to a claim that, as far as I know anyway, has at no time been made. Unless I am mistaken, no source or interested party, has ever stated that ALL residents are in favour of the development, as this is palpably not the case. Even the most avid supporter of the planning development must realistically concede that there is some opposition, and it is a matter of speculation as to what degree that exists. Therefore, I don't understand why Dean Johnson would object to a claim that doesn't exist, other than perhaps in an attempt to misrepresent the position of others, in order to give credence to his own agenda. Whilst the man is as entitled to his beliefs as anybody else, I sometimes think his tactics are at times akin to Quixotic tilting at windmills, and frankly, setting a bizarre false opposition seems a little desperate, to me anyway..
You were quick to support the extremely low response to that consultation which created an "overwhelming" support for the plans, so I was surprised to read your comments here.
Surely you can't have it both ways ??
I wonder if there is any truth in the rumour that when planning for Ingleborough is approved, one of the conditions will be that the Woodchurch development is undertaken before Ingleborough is sold. Let's wait and see.
remember the past preserve the future
says...
11:50am Tue 23 Oct 12
think thats only right anyway sorting woodchurch out IMHO is the priority of the 2 schemes anyway
remember the past preserve the future
says...
12:04pm Tue 23 Oct 12
wood-eddy
says...
12:15pm Tue 23 Oct 12
woodyres2
says...
12:34pm Tue 23 Oct 12
wood-eddy wrote:It would be nice to think the residents will have some say, but somehow I doubt that as Ben Harrison is speaking for everyone !!!
what exactly is the woodchurch getting out of this
I would like to see the running track re-instated, as i've said before people are still using it.
remember the past preserve the future
says...
12:42pm Tue 23 Oct 12
i could go on EDDY but id run out of space
woodyres2
says...
12:45pm Tue 23 Oct 12
remember the past preserve the future wrote:That's what I heard, but my worry when I heard that is since the revised plans are certainly not as extensive in renovations to the leisure centre itself that were described in the original plans (now more of a repair & paint job really)
NB. its on condition that woodchurch is updated before work on ingleborough starts.
Is that because the huge profit that is likely to be made upon the sale of Ingleborough will not be available until later, so TRFC will not be investing as much as they said they would in Woodchurch.
And if that's the case who is keeping the huge profit !!??
Will Woodchurch residents be shortchanged yet again ? We've had years of this from the Council.
;-((
remember the past preserve the future
says...
12:50pm Tue 23 Oct 12
do you really think the club want a second calss training facility or a state of the art one.
its a win win situation in my eyes as a fan and as a former resident of the estate. (i still only live a 5 minute walk away) my kids still use the baths and they are currently a disgrace
woodyres2
says...
1:01pm Tue 23 Oct 12
remember the past preserve the future wrote:No your wrong there !!
better facilities then they currently have??? state of the art pitches better changing facilities the baths being spruced up. the TARDIS being spruced up. i could go on EDDY but id run out of space
The renovations at the Tardis will have nothing to do with TRFC that is currently undergoing Asset Transfer from Council to Community control thanks to a lot of hard work by volunteers over the last 2/3 years.
That is the reason we would like to engage & speak to TRFC to ensure the
best possible use of the land & leisure centre to benefit the community.
Woodchurch lost the Sports Barn years ago, that's not going to happen again.
remember the past preserve the future
says...
1:37pm Tue 23 Oct 12
dont forget this is being built as a community asset.
despite what the ney sayer will tell you TRFC will seek inviolvement about what happens at the community centre"
remember the past preserve the future
says...
2:02pm Tue 23 Oct 12
i would be contacting the tranmere rovers trust with any of your ideas.
www.tranmereroverstr
ust.co.uk
woodyres2
says...
3:50pm Tue 23 Oct 12
remember the past preserve the future wrote:I appreciate the advice remember the past.
WOODYRES i would be contacting the tranmere rovers trust with any of your ideas. www.tranmereroverstr ust.co.uk
wirral1981 says...
2:02pm Wed 17 Oct 12