ANOTHER GLOBE EXCLUSIVE: NEW BRIGHTON COUPLE'S VICTORY OVER SPY CAR FINE

2:20pm Wednesday 22nd July 2009 in News Exclusive By Justin Dunn

Independent tribunal has raised questions over how the spy car is allowed to operate Independent tribunal has raised questions over how the spy car is allowed to operate

A COUPLE are claiming victory over Wirral Council's controversial spy car after successfully overturning two parking fines and bringing the future of the vehicle into question.

An independent tribunal last week ruled that two tickets issued in Victoria Road, New Brighton, were wrong because there were no signs warning motorists they may be photographed.

The council told the Globe on Monday that it is now "reviewing" whether or not it has to place permanent or temporary signs wherever the spy car is in operation.

As the car can theoretically operate anywhere on Wirral, it potentially means the local authority could be forced to place - and pay for - warning signs right across the borough, or alternatively scrap the car altogether.

The surveillance vehicle - a Smart car fitted with a 11ft 'periscope' camera - is operated by the council's parking enforcement contractors NSL, formerly NCP.

Its primary use is to catch and fine errant motorists who park on zig zag lines outside schools, but it also being used to snap drivers who stop on double yellow lines near to cashpoint machines.

Paying a fine is admission of liability of a parking contravention, and we have no plans to re-open any past cases that have been paid

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Wirral Council spokeswoman

The New Brighton couple were issued with their tickets during one week in April.

They appealed to the council on the grounds they were unloading for their business - allowed under the rules - but the appeal was rejected.

They then took their case to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal who ruled in their favour during a 'virtual' hearing on Thursday - a telephone conference call involving themselves, a representative of the council, and an independent adjudicator.

The adjudicator said he was concerned about the lack of signs warning motorists that they could be photographed. He will be writing to the council.

It is known that other cars on Victoria Road were photographed at the same time but the owners of the other vehicles appear to have paid their fines.

The council is refusing to review those other cases as it regards the payment of a fine as an admission of liability.

But New Brighton ward Cllr Sue Taylor said: "It seems strange that the council say they won't re-open any past cases because the fines were paid and therefore admissions of liability were made.

"The whole point of this adjudication surely is that at least in this case the fine was issued wrongly.

"That means there's the possibility that many other fines issued by the spy car have also been issued incorrectly but that motorists have paid up in good faith."

She added: "The vehicle is deliberately being parked in areas like Victoria Road to trap unsuspecting motorists.

"Also, disabled badge holders are permitted to park on double yellow lines for up to three hours but the spy car is unable to differentiate between badged or unbadged vehicles, if photographed from the side or rear.

"I would have thought there would be signage in the area saying you're being watched?

"If the council are now reviewing signage then how are they going to do it and pay for it?

"Will they be wasting more of the council tax payer's money to erect signs in every street in which the spy car may operate?"

A council spokeswoman said: "Anyone who has received a parking ticket and thinks that they have a valid reason to appeal is able to do so through the appeals process detailed. Each case is reviewed on its own merits.

"Paying a fine is admission of liability of a parking contravention, and we have no plans to re-open any past cases that have been paid.

"The council stands by its original decision to issue the tickets to this individual, as there was no evidence of loading or unloading.

"Based on the adjudicator’s recommendations we are currently reviewing the signage."

Asked whether that meant the future of the spy car had been placed in doubt, the council said it would "consider the legalisation" in relation to the adjudicator's written judgement, which they will receive later this week.

* If you have had a parking fine appeal rejected by the council, you can ask for an independent judgement by visiting www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk

Comments(29)

piggymalone says...
1:24pm Wed 22 Jul 09

And now a tribunal admits that this toy is one step to far.
Do not pay penalty charge notices issued by Wirral Council without seeking advice. It is highly likely that the road markings and signs in restricted parking areas are non compliant and therefore any PCN`s issued are unenforceable Excellent free advice at www.pepipoo.co.uk or www.ticketfighter .co.uk

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Spiffy says...
2:06pm Wed 22 Jul 09

Pffffttt...glib council speak yet again. How they can say such things with a straight face is beyond me. Are they paid extra to pretend they actually believe what they are saying ?

Paying a fine is merely the quite understandable admission that you simply do not know enough about the law surrounding the issue to refute it within the required timescale before it is increased dramatically for non-payment.

Too many laws, introduced too quickly and loopholes galore to be challenged. All of which is costing the taxpayers money they are rapidly running out of. There has been a 32 billion quid black hole shortfall reported in tax revenue this year alone. What a disgusting waste.

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Miss Steele says...
3:33pm Wed 22 Jul 09

Just thought this might interest everyone at Wirral Globe! Council toy spy car spotted an hour ago... in a little side road in Greasby next to the village!!! Dangerous, high risk area such as a school??? I think not, and the periscope raised to second floor level in a residential area! And i have seen how they are now covering their backsides after the result of this tribunal... they had taped flimsy paper signs with plastic tapes to the lamposts at the end of the street, featuring the black camera symbol on a white background! So thin and pathetic they were actually fluttering in the wind! Ha ha anything for a bit more money in the council pockets, eh? Go and spend my council tax on something worthwhile for a change!!!

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Hon says...
5:07pm Wed 22 Jul 09

so based on that article the couple won on a technicality not the fact they were not breaking the rules. Well lucky for them :) I suspect it will be resolved shortly and as Miss Steele said the council are now displaying extra signs so I doubt more will get off with a 'technicality'!

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Spiffy says...
5:49pm Wed 22 Jul 09

Hon, from my perspective and based the article, they won on the fact the car is operating unlawfully at present. I am surprised though that they did not not win their appeal based on the fact they were loading/unloading the vehicle - stated as within the rules. If the evidence was a single photograph from the car it would not prove conclusive. It begs the question of whether the car is taking singular photos or a series - or shooting video.

Frankly, it begs a lot of questions about the car that the council has so far failed to answer. Its a messy business all round. I dont think it has been well though through at all and it may cost taxpayers more in appeals that it raises in fines.

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piggymalone says...
6:59pm Wed 22 Jul 09

Paying a fine is admission of liability of a parking contravention, and we have no plans to re-open any past cases that have been paidHon, the tribunal use "The Law of the land" to determine cases, not urban myths, so, it may be a technicality in your eyes but the tribunal has determined the council have broken the law as indeed they do day in and day out issuing PCN`s in illegally marked restricted parking zones. Hence my encouragement to anyone who receives a parking ticket to seek advice as more than likely it is unenforceable

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piggymalone says...
7:03pm Wed 22 Jul 09

I did not write the first sentence in the above post. I dont know how it got there but I do not agree with that statement anyway. Paying a PCN is not necessarily an admission of a contravention.

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Jayo says...
9:09pm Wed 22 Jul 09

What a bunch of incompetent chimpanzees we have had forced upon us in this idiotic council. They are blinded by a money grab."Paying a fine is admission of liability of a parking contravention and we have no plans to reopen any past cases that have been paid" says wirral spokeswoman.Spokespe
rson surely or even spokes-non-gender-sp
ecific.

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lordthomas says...
11:43pm Wed 22 Jul 09

Paying fines an admission, one has been intimidated into believing one has commited an offence,sticking tatty signs up is an admission of incorrect evidence previously submitted to issue tickets all previous tickets issued from any so called evidence from this camera car should be refunded and an equal amount of cash to cover expences

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B Daly says...
1:52pm Thu 23 Jul 09

Paying a fine is admission of liability of a parking contravention, and we have no plans to re-open any past cases that have been paidonce more the council has decided to keep the money is there any change there I think not.

as for the spy car why dose it not hand out tickets after all it is on the sene at the time of the offence or is it a case of take a quick picture and clame that an offence has been comited. did you know that you can stop on double yellow lines for a short time?

of course a trafic warden would take time to issue a ticket and a picture only takes a fraction of a second and proves guilt beyond any doubt!

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egolligos says...
7:33pm Thu 23 Jul 09

This is not necessarily a victory. It would seem that a host of potential lawbreakers also agree with parking on the yellow hatched marking outside schools. These people would, if they could, drive the wrong way around roundabouts!! In fact, I would welcome you to visit Tesco Extra at Bidston Moss and park in tthe disabled parking bays without a blue card. There are notices there that give adequate warning and the penalty for doing so. The highway code is quite specific in where and how you can park. So, why not just forget these rules/laws and continue to drive through traffic lights whilst they are on red! I am afraid that you people are leaning towards anarchy.

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Spiffy says...
11:25pm Thu 23 Jul 09

Yet another post that accuses anyone who does not immediately and completely accept the use of this car without question as somehow proof that they are criminals - or potentially.

What has this debate become ? Agree or be damned ?

Bizarre.

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piggymalone says...
11:25pm Thu 23 Jul 09

What a ridiculous arguement. The "spy" car is according to the council enforcing the decriminalise parking legislation which they use indescriminately to boost their coffers to make up the losses of their own financial incompetence. Not one contributor to this post has suggested they want to driver the wrong way round roundabouts or jump red lights. And I would respectfully remind you that the law applies (or should do) to everyone in the land including Wirral Council and all the other councils that are using decriminalised parking legislation to rip the motoring public off.

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slumdog says...
12:05pm Fri 24 Jul 09

What a brilliant defence!

Next time Im arrested for burglery, murder,arson,etc I will claim Barley on the grounds that I was not made aware that I might get caught, because there were no big signs telling me the authorities might be watching.

Own up! you dont like up you! as they used to say in Dads Army.

Spiffy, try to see some sense. It's as obvious as a rhino in a tutu why anyone might complain about a new means of combating a specific type of crime. Get off that rickety fence before you get splinters.

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slumdog says...
12:08pm Fri 24 Jul 09

Here is a solution for all the people who keep banging on about the law being broken by this car: Go to the police with the photographic evidence, or park up.

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piggymalone says...
7:12pm Sat 25 Jul 09

About time you got you facts right Slumdog. So called parking contraventions are NOT crimes, thats why the legislation allowing Wirral Clowncil to rip the public off is called "decriminalised parking legislation"
I make no appology for refering back to my original post on this subject "anyone receiving a PCN from Wirral Council do not pay it until you have looked at the Pepipoo or Ticketfighters sites. Slumdog obviously does not believe me that Wirral Council are ripping the public off. The above sites will confirm that thousands of people agree with my observations, money, money, money, thats what they want.

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Carrie-ann says...
7:30pm Sat 25 Jul 09

piggymalone and Spiffy you two are a pair of idiots! Parking rules are there for a reason!! If you are in the wrong or park illegally in ANY way, you should hold your hands up and say I was in the wrong and I will pay the fine! parking illegally is just LAZY!!

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slumdog says...
11:59pm Sat 25 Jul 09

carrie-ann, well said!

Piggy, you're busted! stop squirming. You get more and more desperate in your sulky attempts to avoid the truth. I dont care if parking money goes to the council or not, but Im glad it does. They wont get mine, and they wouldn't get yours either if you werent so self centred.

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piggymalone says...
1:16am Sun 26 Jul 09

Busted, squirming...from what. I have only ever had 3 PCN`s and they were for parking outside my own property whilst displaying a valid residents parking permit and after challenging the council they were cancelled. So it has nothing to do whith me wanting to illegally park but it does have something to do with illegally issued PCN`s by Wirral Council with the intention of extracting as much spondoolicks as they can from the public. So this lazy,idiot for one, will continue to criticise Wirral Council until they conform to the law of the land. Obviously as PCN`s do not affect you personally you could not give a **** about your fellow members of the community being ripped off.

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Al27 says...
11:39pm Sun 26 Jul 09

" In fact, I would welcome you to visit Tesco Extra at Bidston Moss and park in tthe disabled parking bays without a blue card. There are notices there that give adequate warning and the penalty for doing so. The highway code is quite specific in where and how you can park. So, why not just forget these rules/laws and continue to drive through traffic lights whilst they are on red! I am afraid that you people are leaning towards anarchy."

D'oh. Highway code doesn't apply on private land and those 'penalties' are merely unenforceable invoices from private companies running mail scams.

Don't park in disabled spots if you're not disabled, but legally they have no status and are mere graffiti. Blue badges have nos stutus on private land either.

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slumdog says...
8:09am Mon 27 Jul 09

Al27, so what is your point? You are a typical example of the sort of petty self centred people who find objection to anything that comes between them and their precious car.

It's only a car. You are not a motorist. You are just a human in a car. Grow up!

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piggymalone says...
10:54am Mon 27 Jul 09

So now you are attacking more contributors to this site because they are of a differing opinion to yours. Its you who wants to grow up

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slumdog says...
11:18am Mon 27 Jul 09

Pigyy, I will continue to state my opinion.

What is so clever about telling people they dont have to observe disabled only parking bays if they dont want to? As usual, it is all about what you can get away with rather than what is right. People keep presenting their arguments as being in support of liberty of some sort. Actually it is about demanding the freedom to inconvenience others.

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piggymalone says...
2:16pm Mon 27 Jul 09

"Your a typical example blahhh, blahhh" "Grow up" Terminology used by you, no one else so if those words are expressing your opinion then so be it

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Al27 says...
6:54pm Mon 27 Jul 09

Paying a fine is admission of liability of a parking contravention, and we have no plans to re-open any past cases that have been paidYawn. You've missed the point completely Slumdog.

By your reasoning, 86 year old Ethel who forgets to display her badge in Asda must pay an unlawful charge from a crooked company because she 'deserves' it.

The private parking industry is unregulated and is littered with companies who make a living sending out threatening, unlawful letters for unenforceable charges. I suggest you read up on this mail scam. I wouldn't be surprised if you've been suckered by this scam in the past - ever paid a 'fine' to NCP or Euro Car Parks?

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egolligos says...
4:56pm Sat 1 Aug 09

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF respondants that fail to see the implication that I made on my posting of 23rd July. The next time I see someone parking on the yellow hatched lines outside any school, I will call the police and the Council to attend and, I will take my own photograph of the offender. And I use the word OFFENDER deliberately. So, if you wish to be kept clear of any of those parking offences, send me your car reg number!!!

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egolligos says...
1:40pm Sun 2 Aug 09

It seems to me that the piggmalones of this world would like to be free to do as they wish when out and about driving their little sheds. Piggymalone, if you had a driveway on your property, would you object if I used it to park my car on or would you report my illegal parking to the Police?

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piggymalone says...
12:11am Mon 3 Aug 09

Firstly, yellow hatched lines are used in box junctions,not outside schools, so get your facts right before criticising motorists, you are obviously not one or if you are you need to read the highway code and learn your road signs. Secondly, I have never advocated "doing what they want" Thirdly, I live in Wallasey in a residents only parking zone and do indeed have a driveway and should you wish to come up to Liscard and do some shopping you are welcome to park on my drive to avaoid any confrontations with the greystapo. However, your scenario is a ridiculous one Just PM me to make arrangements to park in my drive. Finally, if you want to live in a world ruled by suits who spy on the population from every direction because they are so terrified of loosing their power, then thats your choice

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Spiffy says...
12:57am Tue 4 Aug 09

Sorry late to post, have been away...now I am back...

"Carrie-ann, Wirral says...
7:30pm Sat 25 Jul 09
piggymalone and Spiffy you two are a pair of idiots! Parking rules are there for a reason!! If you are in the wrong or park illegally in ANY way, you should hold your hands up and say I was in the wrong and I will pay the fine! parking illegally is just LAZY!!"

Carrie-ann it is you who has proven themselves an idiot by exhibiting a remarkably LAZY, and seemingly deliberate, preference to not read the article properly before commenting. Read again - properly - the tribunal found in their favour. For your benefit I will explain that this means that they had not parked illegally.

"slumdog, wallasey says...
12:05pm Fri 24 Jul 09...Spiffy, try to see some sense. It's as obvious as a rhino in a tutu why anyone might complain about a new means of combating a specific type of crime. Get off that rickety fence before you get splinters."

No it isnt obvious. Talk straight man. Are we all criminals for questioning the use, methods and legality of this car ? Its a simple question. Can you give a straight answer ?

Rickety fence ? Rhinos in tutus ?

Perhaps you should try talking sense if you want it to be seen.

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