Council responds to anger over circus opening up in Wirral tonight featuring lions and tigers

Peter Jolly's circus

Anthony Beckwith, of Peter Jolly's Circus

First published in News
Last updated

Wirral Council has responded to public anger over a travelling circus featuring live animals opening up in Wirral tonight.

Posters advertising "Peter Jolly's traditional circus with lions and tigers" have gone up across the borough, sparking protests.

The circus said the animals are not "wild" but are bred "within the industry."

Councillor Bernie Mooney, town hall cabinet member for the environment, said: “I fully understand that many people are concerned about the use of live animals in this circus.

"Wirral Council would not have permitted this to take place on council-owned land.

“Unfortunately, we have no power to prevent such a circus on private land if it holds a ‘Licence to Operate a Travelling Circus Using Wild Animals’ from the Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA), which this circus does."

Councillor Moonie said DEFRA is responsible for enforcing conditions issued with the licence under the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses Regulations 2012.

She added: “However, officers from Wirral Council have visited the circus to ensure that basic welfare requirements concerning food, water, shelter etc are being met.

"We will regularly check these are being maintained and that the circus operators are meeting other regulatory requirements that do fall under the remit of the local authority and, if necessary, we will take enforcement action.”

Anthony Beckwith, of Peter Jolly’s Circus, said: "People want to come and see a traditional circus.

"We don’t have animals from the wild, they are all bred within the industry. Our lions are British-born from several generations.

"If the lions didn't receive full care we would not be able to have them in the show.

"There are people who have genuine concerns about how the animals are treated and we have an open-door policy to help calm their fears.

"If people want to come along and see what conditions the animals live in before they buy tickets, they are welcome to do so.

"We are licensed by the Secretary of State for the environment and monitored by DEFRA, working very closely with them."

Pressure group Animal Defenders International urged animal-lovers to boycott the circus, one of only two remaining in the UK which still use "wild" animals.

A spokeswoman said: “If the circus has animals – don’t go.

"Wait and have a day out when the human-only circus comes around.”

Wirral RSPCA Inspector Anthony Joynes added: "The circus is a complete no-no for us given they have live performing animals and we are getting lots and lots of calls about it.

"We are against any circus utilising live animals."

 

Comments (82)

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7:34pm Wed 23 Jul 14

Growl Tiger says...

We followed some of these trucks through Thurstaston on Monday afternoon. Absolutely disgusting as there was a Police Car in front of us that turned off rather than confront the slow and at times static convoy.

A huge red truck on which was hitched a caravan and a horse box followed by another large red vehicle and another horse box. The temperature was up in the high 20s and the vehicles were holding up all the traffic. I just hate to think of the state these animals were in. Wirral Council should ban them from our Peninsula as should every other part of Britain.

Although the Council says it can’t do anything to stop the circus on private land it should stop the advertising on Council property eg traffic barriers in West Kirby.
We followed some of these trucks through Thurstaston on Monday afternoon. Absolutely disgusting as there was a Police Car in front of us that turned off rather than confront the slow and at times static convoy. A huge red truck on which was hitched a caravan and a horse box followed by another large red vehicle and another horse box. The temperature was up in the high 20s and the vehicles were holding up all the traffic. I just hate to think of the state these animals were in. Wirral Council should ban them from our Peninsula as should every other part of Britain. Although the Council says it can’t do anything to stop the circus on private land it should stop the advertising on Council property eg traffic barriers in West Kirby. Growl Tiger
  • Score: -58

8:21pm Wed 23 Jul 14

bobbelsekwol says...

Strange the way the Council can't do anything about it. If I want a shed in my back garden, I require permission of the Council to erect it.Surely there must be something to stop "The Circus" coming to town.
Strange the way the Council can't do anything about it. If I want a shed in my back garden, I require permission of the Council to erect it.Surely there must be something to stop "The Circus" coming to town. bobbelsekwol
  • Score: -42

8:46pm Wed 23 Jul 14

Joeblogg85 says...

Might be a good opportunity! How many Councillors do we have? ;-/
Might be a good opportunity! How many Councillors do we have? ;-/ Joeblogg85
  • Score: 15

10:27pm Wed 23 Jul 14

woodcutter 56 says...

I think some of the super. Directors should go down there and check if the anlmals are dangerous by getting in with them just think of the savings the council could make if they where realy dangerous
I think some of the super. Directors should go down there and check if the anlmals are dangerous by getting in with them just think of the savings the council could make if they where realy dangerous woodcutter 56
  • Score: 14

11:53pm Wed 23 Jul 14

yesandorno says...

its just wrong

sad thing is though , itll be sold out every night
its just wrong sad thing is though , itll be sold out every night yesandorno
  • Score: -14

12:19am Thu 24 Jul 14

Liamptk says...

I've just been down to have a 'peaceful' discussion about the immoral and old fashioned parade currently taking place.

The employees there attempted to ATTACK me with a CHAIR and hurled abuse for my disagreeing with the proceedings.

If the Wirral Globe would like a reporting on this, I have video evidence of the aggression that took place along with all of the conversation.

I personally will not stand for this happening on my door step and shall be arranging peaceful protests to drain any funding this freak show may receive from uneducated attendees. If anyone else feels as strongly, contact me on 07505 843804.
I've just been down to have a 'peaceful' discussion about the immoral and old fashioned parade currently taking place. The employees there attempted to ATTACK me with a CHAIR and hurled abuse for my disagreeing with the proceedings. If the Wirral Globe would like a reporting on this, I have video evidence of the aggression that took place along with all of the conversation. I personally will not stand for this happening on my door step and shall be arranging peaceful protests to drain any funding this freak show may receive from uneducated attendees. If anyone else feels as strongly, contact me on 07505 843804. Liamptk
  • Score: -54

8:51am Thu 24 Jul 14

Ahamay says...

Quite simply, circuses should be totally banned.
Quite simply, circuses should be totally banned. Ahamay
  • Score: -87

11:00am Thu 24 Jul 14

hildebrand says...

Ahamay wrote:
Quite simply, circuses should be totally banned.
nothing wrong with circuses that don't exploit animals, surely? This is really a national issue - the government needs to legislate to stop possible animal rights abuses.
[quote][p][bold]Ahamay[/bold] wrote: Quite simply, circuses should be totally banned.[/p][/quote]nothing wrong with circuses that don't exploit animals, surely? This is really a national issue - the government needs to legislate to stop possible animal rights abuses. hildebrand
  • Score: -11

11:34am Thu 24 Jul 14

spamfiend says...

he added: “However, officers from Wirral Council have visited the circus to ensure that basic welfare requirements concerning food, water, shelter etc are being met."

Shame they don't apply the same to their residents that they are 'meant' to represent...
he added: “However, officers from Wirral Council have visited the circus to ensure that basic welfare requirements concerning food, water, shelter etc are being met." Shame they don't apply the same to their residents that they are 'meant' to represent... spamfiend
  • Score: 25

12:10pm Thu 24 Jul 14

Brervixen says...

I drove past yesterday at around 6:30pm, just as the police arrived (I assume to break up the protest!) it was very peaceful! I can only say BLOODY GOOD JOB to the protesters, I beeped my horn and gave a thumbs up, in support. If I had time I would have stopped and joined the protest. Keeping wild animals in cages and travelling them round is abhorrent, and wickedly cruel.
I drove past yesterday at around 6:30pm, just as the police arrived (I assume to break up the protest!) it was very peaceful! I can only say BLOODY GOOD JOB to the protesters, I beeped my horn and gave a thumbs up, in support. If I had time I would have stopped and joined the protest. Keeping wild animals in cages and travelling them round is abhorrent, and wickedly cruel. Brervixen
  • Score: -55

12:37pm Thu 24 Jul 14

rover600 says...

This really is a throwback to bygone times, I was shocked to hear circus's with 'Wild Animals' whether bred in captivity or not are still permitted. They are certainly not socially acceptable in my view.

I'm taking a very wide berth, I hope others do too.
This really is a throwback to bygone times, I was shocked to hear circus's with 'Wild Animals' whether bred in captivity or not are still permitted. They are certainly not socially acceptable in my view. I'm taking a very wide berth, I hope others do too. rover600
  • Score: -51

12:48pm Thu 24 Jul 14

smabo says...

spamfiend wrote:
he added: “However, officers from Wirral Council have visited the circus to ensure that basic welfare requirements concerning food, water, shelter etc are being met."

Shame they don't apply the same to their residents that they are 'meant' to represent...
Why are you having a go at regular members of staff just doing their job?
[quote][p][bold]spamfiend[/bold] wrote: he added: “However, officers from Wirral Council have visited the circus to ensure that basic welfare requirements concerning food, water, shelter etc are being met." Shame they don't apply the same to their residents that they are 'meant' to represent...[/p][/quote]Why are you having a go at regular members of staff just doing their job? smabo
  • Score: 17

12:55pm Thu 24 Jul 14

Cheesy Peas says...

Is this the same land that the council arranged for the R&A to use as a park and ride for the Golf?
Is this the same land that the council arranged for the R&A to use as a park and ride for the Golf? Cheesy Peas
  • Score: 0

3:33pm Thu 24 Jul 14

jdd_london says...

I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom.

This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met.

However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses.

The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises.

To quote her:

“..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).”

A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated:

“A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence”

They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other
captive environments.

The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear.

Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012

It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.
I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom. This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met. However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses. The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises. To quote her: “..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).” A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated: “A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence” They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other captive environments. The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear. Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012 It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research. jdd_london
  • Score: 127

4:04pm Thu 24 Jul 14

Claire Fid says...

I'm disturbed in the way people gang up on circuses. As people we have a freedom of being able to choose what we do and how we think. We live in a democracy which supports that belief. If someone has a child and they don't look after it it is taken from them we don't gang together as a nation and say ok we will ban people from having children. Why? Cos it is not logical to do so. So why do it? Why gang up on circuses. If a animal is well looked after in some ones home people can't go and take that animal just cos they believe it's wrong to have a pet. Circuses should be able to choose wether or not they have animals. And people also have to choose wether or not they go to see a circus with animals. We don't live in a dictatorship yet do we? So let's stop acting like we do. And I suggest before you pass judgment over said circus you go and see for your self. Long live freedom of choice.
I'm disturbed in the way people gang up on circuses. As people we have a freedom of being able to choose what we do and how we think. We live in a democracy which supports that belief. If someone has a child and they don't look after it it is taken from them we don't gang together as a nation and say ok we will ban people from having children. Why? Cos it is not logical to do so. So why do it? Why gang up on circuses. If a animal is well looked after in some ones home people can't go and take that animal just cos they believe it's wrong to have a pet. Circuses should be able to choose wether or not they have animals. And people also have to choose wether or not they go to see a circus with animals. We don't live in a dictatorship yet do we? So let's stop acting like we do. And I suggest before you pass judgment over said circus you go and see for your self. Long live freedom of choice. Claire Fid
  • Score: 119

4:31pm Thu 24 Jul 14

Growl Tiger says...

I don’t know who these people are who are supporting the exploitation of wild animals. This particular circus site says “meet our lions, tigers, snakes, zebras, camels, clowns and more”. It is putting these animals into the same category as a performing clown. However, a clown can escape the captivity of the circus if it so wishes. These animals cannot.

They are creatures which should be living in conditions as close to their national environment as possible – not caged, carted and paraded across the country and forced to perform tricks to line the pockets of their jailors.

I don’t think we need “proper objective research” to know that this violation of wild creatures is abhorrent and reminiscent of those who lived in the dark ages.
I don’t know who these people are who are supporting the exploitation of wild animals. This particular circus site says “meet our lions, tigers, snakes, zebras, camels, clowns and more”. It is putting these animals into the same category as a performing clown. However, a clown can escape the captivity of the circus if it so wishes. These animals cannot. They are creatures which should be living in conditions as close to their national environment as possible – not caged, carted and paraded across the country and forced to perform tricks to line the pockets of their jailors. I don’t think we need “proper objective research” to know that this violation of wild creatures is abhorrent and reminiscent of those who lived in the dark ages. Growl Tiger
  • Score: -91

5:23pm Thu 24 Jul 14

Growl Tiger says...

There has been an organised assault on our comments by the thumb downers. Ugly!
There has been an organised assault on our comments by the thumb downers. Ugly! Growl Tiger
  • Score: -62

8:04pm Thu 24 Jul 14

Growl Tiger says...

Leigh Marles
This site has been attacked by the circus.enployees, You see this everywhere they perform. They have thumbed down all our comments.

This is so disturbing. Take all these comments down please – they are as make believe as their apparent care for the animals they pretend o care for.
Leigh Marles This site has been attacked by the circus.enployees, You see this everywhere they perform. They have thumbed down all our comments. This is so disturbing. Take all these comments down please – they are as make believe as their apparent care for the animals they pretend o care for. Growl Tiger
  • Score: -75

8:34pm Thu 24 Jul 14

calipso says...

I would like to say I'm certainly not part of circus and I've spent 9 years working in a zoo working with a wide variety of animals and I'm certainly a animal lover and would never like to see any animal come to any harm but I have seen Jollys circus and others using animals in the UK and I was very happy with there conditions they was kept in and the way they was worked!!! Why don't people stop people shooting animals for the fun of it in places like Africa!! I once had a animal rights guy jump infront of my car visiting a circus why don't they let the public decided for themselves!!
I would like to say I'm certainly not part of circus and I've spent 9 years working in a zoo working with a wide variety of animals and I'm certainly a animal lover and would never like to see any animal come to any harm but I have seen Jollys circus and others using animals in the UK and I was very happy with there conditions they was kept in and the way they was worked!!! Why don't people stop people shooting animals for the fun of it in places like Africa!! I once had a animal rights guy jump infront of my car visiting a circus why don't they let the public decided for themselves!! calipso
  • Score: 83

11:39pm Thu 24 Jul 14

tasterealale says...

I've only just found out that the circus is on Wirral. I'm appalled. There is no way that these animals would choose to perform to a jeering crowd if they had any choice whatsoever.

I'd like to think that this animal circus is unwelcome here in Wirral but people will go along and support it which sickens me.

We're in the middle of a heatwave and these poor animals will be suffering dreadfully. I'll bet the journey to Wirral was "hell on earth" for these poor animals.

I'm going to contact the Council and my MP about why this is allowed. Perhaps a bye-law could be considered to ban this cruel "entertainment" if our councillors are made aware of the distasteful practices that take place to force the animals to perform?
I've only just found out that the circus is on Wirral. I'm appalled. There is no way that these animals would choose to perform to a jeering crowd if they had any choice whatsoever. I'd like to think that this animal circus is unwelcome here in Wirral but people will go along and support it which sickens me. We're in the middle of a heatwave and these poor animals will be suffering dreadfully. I'll bet the journey to Wirral was "hell on earth" for these poor animals. I'm going to contact the Council and my MP about why this is allowed. Perhaps a bye-law could be considered to ban this cruel "entertainment" if our councillors are made aware of the distasteful practices that take place to force the animals to perform? tasterealale
  • Score: -68

12:03am Fri 25 Jul 14

Jim from NH says...

These animals get better healthcare than I do, and maybe better food. If they could talk, they would tell these well meaning but ignorant humans to back off and not spoil their gravy train. These people really haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about. The reality is that most circuses bend over backward to take excellent care of their beloved animals, and the exposure helps bring visibility to their species, assisting with worldwide conservation efforts of these magnificent creatures. These guys call themselves "environmentalists", but their actions serve to endanger the very species they are trying to protect. These people really need to study up, sift fact from fiction, and get away from this crowd mentality that shows to those who know just how utterly clueless they are.
These animals get better healthcare than I do, and maybe better food. If they could talk, they would tell these well meaning but ignorant humans to back off and not spoil their gravy train. These people really haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about. The reality is that most circuses bend over backward to take excellent care of their beloved animals, and the exposure helps bring visibility to their species, assisting with worldwide conservation efforts of these magnificent creatures. These guys call themselves "environmentalists", but their actions serve to endanger the very species they are trying to protect. These people really need to study up, sift fact from fiction, and get away from this crowd mentality that shows to those who know just how utterly clueless they are. Jim from NH
  • Score: 76

2:31am Fri 25 Jul 14

Michaelus says...

Thankfully the public has seen through the lies used by the animal rights corporations and support traditional animal circuses in the UK. It's a bit odd that animal rights groups first campaigned on the cruelty involved in circuses and when science and 2 independent studies found that to be false NOW they want to ban animals on a moral cause. Just shows when presented with scientific truthful facts animal rights activists will still deny and distort it.
Thankfully the public has seen through the lies used by the animal rights corporations and support traditional animal circuses in the UK. It's a bit odd that animal rights groups first campaigned on the cruelty involved in circuses and when science and 2 independent studies found that to be false NOW they want to ban animals on a moral cause. Just shows when presented with scientific truthful facts animal rights activists will still deny and distort it. Michaelus
  • Score: 54

9:22am Fri 25 Jul 14

Claire Fid says...

Growl Tiger wrote:
Leigh Marles
This site has been attacked by the circus.enployees, You see this everywhere they perform. They have thumbed down all our comments.

This is so disturbing. Take all these comments down please – they are as make believe as their apparent care for the animals they pretend o care for.
I am assuming by your comment that you are Animal Rights. You post a online protest and then when people vote you cry fowl play. Animal rights is so different from animal welfare isn't it. So what is it going to be all animals should be free or all animals should be well looked after? If your targeting a circus for there neglect and miss treating there animals then I will stand next to you and fight hammer and tongs. But if as I suspect you our AR, then don't be surprised when people use there heads and see you all for what you are. You can't have things all one way people are free to attend circuses with or with out animals. It's up to us to decide not you. If we did not go to see a circus with animals how long do you think they would survive.
[quote][p][bold]Growl Tiger[/bold] wrote: Leigh Marles This site has been attacked by the circus.enployees, You see this everywhere they perform. They have thumbed down all our comments. This is so disturbing. Take all these comments down please – they are as make believe as their apparent care for the animals they pretend o care for.[/p][/quote]I am assuming by your comment that you are Animal Rights. You post a online protest and then when people vote you cry fowl play. Animal rights is so different from animal welfare isn't it. So what is it going to be all animals should be free or all animals should be well looked after? If your targeting a circus for there neglect and miss treating there animals then I will stand next to you and fight hammer and tongs. But if as I suspect you our AR, then don't be surprised when people use there heads and see you all for what you are. You can't have things all one way people are free to attend circuses with or with out animals. It's up to us to decide not you. If we did not go to see a circus with animals how long do you think they would survive. Claire Fid
  • Score: 28

12:15pm Fri 25 Jul 14

InFavorOfCircus says...

I am disgusted by the animal rights businesses crying wolf all the time! I believe that the circus animals enjoy longer lives than the few remaining animals in the "wild". The choice - to attend a circus or not - should be that of the people. Those who don't like it - stay home!
I am disgusted by the animal rights businesses crying wolf all the time! I believe that the circus animals enjoy longer lives than the few remaining animals in the "wild". The choice - to attend a circus or not - should be that of the people. Those who don't like it - stay home! InFavorOfCircus
  • Score: 29

2:30pm Fri 25 Jul 14

yesandorno says...

you can tell that theres multiple accounts being created and an effort made to manipulate every local paper comments section everywhere they go.

not only are they 9in my opinion)wrong to use animals
they also think we are too stupid to notice.
you can tell that theres multiple accounts being created and an effort made to manipulate every local paper comments section everywhere they go. not only are they 9in my opinion)wrong to use animals they also think we are too stupid to notice. yesandorno
  • Score: -12

3:16pm Fri 25 Jul 14

elisab says...

It is patently evident that the circus operators and/or their minimal supporters have been 'voting' on comments and making posts on this story, as oh looky suddenly all the original comments expressing negative remarks about this circus have suddenly attained multiple 'thumbs downs' despite initially having the opposite! Likewise poster account names are all seemingly new, no regular Globe contributors. How odd. LOL you have to laugh as quite clearly the truth hurts and all the the proponents have is a simple click in answer. Fear not, the good people of Wirral know the score regarding this. Click down all you like all it does is negate your tenuous stance. *And queue thumbs down on this... lol, too funny, if the actual story wasn't so pitiful.
It is patently evident that the circus operators and/or their minimal supporters have been 'voting' on comments and making posts on this story, as oh looky suddenly all the original comments expressing negative remarks about this circus have suddenly attained multiple 'thumbs downs' despite initially having the opposite! Likewise poster account names are all seemingly new, no regular Globe contributors. How odd. LOL you have to laugh as quite clearly the truth hurts and all the the proponents have is a simple click in answer. Fear not, the good people of Wirral know the score regarding this. Click down all you like all it does is negate your tenuous stance. *And queue thumbs down on this... lol, too funny, if the actual story wasn't so pitiful. elisab
  • Score: -8

3:19pm Fri 25 Jul 14

naughtykitties says...

Indeed, yesandorno, utterly blatant shilling by these barbaric circus thugs. Shame on despicable animal abusers and their lies!
Indeed, yesandorno, utterly blatant shilling by these barbaric circus thugs. Shame on despicable animal abusers and their lies! naughtykitties
  • Score: -21

7:51pm Fri 25 Jul 14

Rudebox says...

Liamptk wrote:
I've just been down to have a 'peaceful' discussion about the immoral and old fashioned parade currently taking place.

The employees there attempted to ATTACK me with a CHAIR and hurled abuse for my disagreeing with the proceedings.

If the Wirral Globe would like a reporting on this, I have video evidence of the aggression that took place along with all of the conversation.

I personally will not stand for this happening on my door step and shall be arranging peaceful protests to drain any funding this freak show may receive from uneducated attendees. If anyone else feels as strongly, contact me on 07505 843804.
Good for you- please show this footage Wirral Globe. #TeamLiamptk
[quote][p][bold]Liamptk[/bold] wrote: I've just been down to have a 'peaceful' discussion about the immoral and old fashioned parade currently taking place. The employees there attempted to ATTACK me with a CHAIR and hurled abuse for my disagreeing with the proceedings. If the Wirral Globe would like a reporting on this, I have video evidence of the aggression that took place along with all of the conversation. I personally will not stand for this happening on my door step and shall be arranging peaceful protests to drain any funding this freak show may receive from uneducated attendees. If anyone else feels as strongly, contact me on 07505 843804.[/p][/quote]Good for you- please show this footage Wirral Globe. #TeamLiamptk Rudebox
  • Score: 12

8:21pm Fri 25 Jul 14

BlueHue says...

Animals kept in good conditions that were originally bred in captivity who enjoy performing. Where would these animal rights protesters, who have suddenly descended on our area, have these animals kept? They can't be released into the wild, they are accustomed to human contact and affection... so a cage 24 hours a day? A zoo with no interaction? Although zoos are apparently evil too. How about you leave people to make a choice to attend or not, go back to where you actually live and stop rabble rousing about something you clearly know little about.
Animals kept in good conditions that were originally bred in captivity who enjoy performing. Where would these animal rights protesters, who have suddenly descended on our area, have these animals kept? They can't be released into the wild, they are accustomed to human contact and affection... so a cage 24 hours a day? A zoo with no interaction? Although zoos are apparently evil too. How about you leave people to make a choice to attend or not, go back to where you actually live and stop rabble rousing about something you clearly know little about. BlueHue
  • Score: 27

8:32pm Fri 25 Jul 14

Melissa99 says...

Jim from NH wrote:
These animals get better healthcare than I do, and maybe better food. If they could talk, they would tell these well meaning but ignorant humans to back off and not spoil their gravy train. These people really haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about. The reality is that most circuses bend over backward to take excellent care of their beloved animals, and the exposure helps bring visibility to their species, assisting with worldwide conservation efforts of these magnificent creatures. These guys call themselves "environmentali
sts", but their actions serve to endanger the very species they are trying to protect. These people really need to study up, sift fact from fiction, and get away from this crowd mentality that shows to those who know just how utterly clueless they are.
Exposure brings visibility to their species? Who doesn't know what a lion or tiger is? And tell me, how exactly is a travelling circus in ENGLAND assisting the conservation of an AFRICAN animal. Complete utter bull you just spouted there. Staff maybe?
Sure you posted something similar on the Middlewich rag!
[quote][p][bold]Jim from NH[/bold] wrote: These animals get better healthcare than I do, and maybe better food. If they could talk, they would tell these well meaning but ignorant humans to back off and not spoil their gravy train. These people really haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about. The reality is that most circuses bend over backward to take excellent care of their beloved animals, and the exposure helps bring visibility to their species, assisting with worldwide conservation efforts of these magnificent creatures. These guys call themselves "environmentali sts", but their actions serve to endanger the very species they are trying to protect. These people really need to study up, sift fact from fiction, and get away from this crowd mentality that shows to those who know just how utterly clueless they are.[/p][/quote]Exposure brings visibility to their species? Who doesn't know what a lion or tiger is? And tell me, how exactly is a travelling circus in ENGLAND assisting the conservation of an AFRICAN animal. Complete utter bull you just spouted there. Staff maybe? Sure you posted something similar on the Middlewich rag! Melissa99
  • Score: -18

9:04pm Fri 25 Jul 14

Growl Tiger says...

The very fact that yesterday the animal controllers felt a need to use its employees to trash our comments says it all. They know they are hated, they know they are making a disgusting living from exploitation and they are the lowest form of life – crawling in the gutter of mankind.
The very fact that yesterday the animal controllers felt a need to use its employees to trash our comments says it all. They know they are hated, they know they are making a disgusting living from exploitation and they are the lowest form of life – crawling in the gutter of mankind. Growl Tiger
  • Score: -17

10:12pm Fri 25 Jul 14

InFavorOfCircus says...

Checked back today and am pleased to see that some common sense has come into play here. The majority will always favor the circus, knowing that the animals are well cared for and recognizing the animal rights business for what it is - a fund raising scam that preys on the natural tendency of humans to love animals. The irony is that anyone would believe that circus animals are abused ... We could all learn a lot from circus people about their animals, and those with open minds DO! Of particular interest are the complaints from those against the circus that they are getting "thumbs down"! Do they think the rest of the world is not entitled to an opinion? Long live the circus and it's beloved animals!
Checked back today and am pleased to see that some common sense has come into play here. The majority will always favor the circus, knowing that the animals are well cared for and recognizing the animal rights business for what it is - a fund raising scam that preys on the natural tendency of humans to love animals. The irony is that anyone would believe that circus animals are abused ... We could all learn a lot from circus people about their animals, and those with open minds DO! Of particular interest are the complaints from those against the circus that they are getting "thumbs down"! Do they think the rest of the world is not entitled to an opinion? Long live the circus and it's beloved animals! InFavorOfCircus
  • Score: 22

10:17pm Fri 25 Jul 14

Melissa99 says...

InFavorOfCircus wrote:
Checked back today and am pleased to see that some common sense has come into play here. The majority will always favor the circus, knowing that the animals are well cared for and recognizing the animal rights business for what it is - a fund raising scam that preys on the natural tendency of humans to love animals. The irony is that anyone would believe that circus animals are abused ... We could all learn a lot from circus people about their animals, and those with open minds DO! Of particular interest are the complaints from those against the circus that they are getting "thumbs down"! Do they think the rest of the world is not entitled to an opinion? Long live the circus and it's beloved animals!
What, all two of them!
[quote][p][bold]InFavorOfCircus[/bold] wrote: Checked back today and am pleased to see that some common sense has come into play here. The majority will always favor the circus, knowing that the animals are well cared for and recognizing the animal rights business for what it is - a fund raising scam that preys on the natural tendency of humans to love animals. The irony is that anyone would believe that circus animals are abused ... We could all learn a lot from circus people about their animals, and those with open minds DO! Of particular interest are the complaints from those against the circus that they are getting "thumbs down"! Do they think the rest of the world is not entitled to an opinion? Long live the circus and it's beloved animals![/p][/quote]What, all two of them! Melissa99
  • Score: -10

10:26pm Fri 25 Jul 14

Melissa99 says...

Growl Tiger wrote:
The very fact that yesterday the animal controllers felt a need to use its employees to trash our comments says it all. They know they are hated, they know they are making a disgusting living from exploitation and they are the lowest form of life – crawling in the gutter of mankind.
You're right there. If you look at other news reports on here, people really don't bother to give the thumbs thing any time. Guess Jolly's staff need to feel vindicated in what they do!
If the animal circuses were that popular (as the thumbs indicate), why is there only two doing the rounds?! OUTDATED ENTERTAINMENT.
[quote][p][bold]Growl Tiger[/bold] wrote: The very fact that yesterday the animal controllers felt a need to use its employees to trash our comments says it all. They know they are hated, they know they are making a disgusting living from exploitation and they are the lowest form of life – crawling in the gutter of mankind.[/p][/quote]You're right there. If you look at other news reports on here, people really don't bother to give the thumbs thing any time. Guess Jolly's staff need to feel vindicated in what they do! If the animal circuses were that popular (as the thumbs indicate), why is there only two doing the rounds?! OUTDATED ENTERTAINMENT. Melissa99
  • Score: -22

11:07pm Fri 25 Jul 14

naughtykitties says...

InFavorOfCircus wrote:
Checked back today and am pleased to see that some common sense has come into play here. The majority will always favor the circus, knowing that the animals are well cared for and recognizing the animal rights business for what it is - a fund raising scam that preys on the natural tendency of humans to love animals. The irony is that anyone would believe that circus animals are abused ... We could all learn a lot from circus people about their animals, and those with open minds DO! Of particular interest are the complaints from those against the circus that they are getting "thumbs down"! Do they think the rest of the world is not entitled to an opinion? Long live the circus and it's beloved animals!
Do you get job satisfaction from being a paid shill? Decent salary? Healthcare benefits?
[quote][p][bold]InFavorOfCircus[/bold] wrote: Checked back today and am pleased to see that some common sense has come into play here. The majority will always favor the circus, knowing that the animals are well cared for and recognizing the animal rights business for what it is - a fund raising scam that preys on the natural tendency of humans to love animals. The irony is that anyone would believe that circus animals are abused ... We could all learn a lot from circus people about their animals, and those with open minds DO! Of particular interest are the complaints from those against the circus that they are getting "thumbs down"! Do they think the rest of the world is not entitled to an opinion? Long live the circus and it's beloved animals![/p][/quote]Do you get job satisfaction from being a paid shill? Decent salary? Healthcare benefits? naughtykitties
  • Score: -10

9:23am Sat 26 Jul 14

Claire Fid says...

As animal rights activist what is it you actually believe in? And when you have stopped wild animals in circuses, do you then move to all animals in circuses. Then what's next? How meany animals are distorted each year by animal groups? So a circus looks after there animals, but there in the wrong for having animals. The RSPCA destroy animals daily and yet animal rights groups arn't protesting out side there doors. Your comments arn't logical your so full of hate that you can't see what's right there IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S ABOUT THE WELFARE OF THE ANIMALS!!!!!!!
As animal rights activist what is it you actually believe in? And when you have stopped wild animals in circuses, do you then move to all animals in circuses. Then what's next? How meany animals are distorted each year by animal groups? So a circus looks after there animals, but there in the wrong for having animals. The RSPCA destroy animals daily and yet animal rights groups arn't protesting out side there doors. Your comments arn't logical your so full of hate that you can't see what's right there IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S ABOUT THE WELFARE OF THE ANIMALS!!!!!!! Claire Fid
  • Score: 14

9:43am Sat 26 Jul 14

Positive thinker says...

There's enough humans that act like wild animals live in surrounding
areas,what do we do about them? At least the Circus is only here for
a week but were stuck with the others 24/7 365
There's enough humans that act like wild animals live in surrounding areas,what do we do about them? At least the Circus is only here for a week but were stuck with the others 24/7 365 Positive thinker
  • Score: 0

10:41am Sat 26 Jul 14

uncatom says...

It has become obvious that Claire Fid aka Bo Bo is a Circus employee as the alias suggests, please take you support for animal cruelty with you when you leave, I also abhor violence to clowns, but wouldn't mind seeing a lion clamped firmly onto the back of one's trousers, just so the oversize shoes are on the other foot for a change.
It has become obvious that Claire Fid aka Bo Bo is a Circus employee as the alias suggests, please take you support for animal cruelty with you when you leave, I also abhor violence to clowns, but wouldn't mind seeing a lion clamped firmly onto the back of one's trousers, just so the oversize shoes are on the other foot for a change. uncatom
  • Score: -7

12:39pm Sat 26 Jul 14

Claire Fid says...

uncatom wrote:
It has become obvious that Claire Fid aka Bo Bo is a Circus employee as the alias suggests, please take you support for animal cruelty with you when you leave, I also abhor violence to clowns, but wouldn't mind seeing a lion clamped firmly onto the back of one's trousers, just so the oversize shoes are on the other foot for a change.
My name is Claire Fidlia I never have and never will work for the circus in question. I am a supporter of circuses, zoo's, sea life's centers etc. I am a mum and my children love going places were they can see the animals for them selves. Would you like more info about me? My address? Are you really that blinked to believe that the people of this country don't have a right to speak. You vote was do you won't to ban animals in circuses. I say no.
[quote][p][bold]uncatom[/bold] wrote: It has become obvious that Claire Fid aka Bo Bo is a Circus employee as the alias suggests, please take you support for animal cruelty with you when you leave, I also abhor violence to clowns, but wouldn't mind seeing a lion clamped firmly onto the back of one's trousers, just so the oversize shoes are on the other foot for a change.[/p][/quote]My name is Claire Fidlia I never have and never will work for the circus in question. I am a supporter of circuses, zoo's, sea life's centers etc. I am a mum and my children love going places were they can see the animals for them selves. Would you like more info about me? My address? Are you really that blinked to believe that the people of this country don't have a right to speak. You vote was do you won't to ban animals in circuses. I say no. Claire Fid
  • Score: 15

1:15pm Sat 26 Jul 14

naughtykitties says...

Note the words "farm" and "abattoir" were missing from Ms Fidlia's shill post...
Note the words "farm" and "abattoir" were missing from Ms Fidlia's shill post... naughtykitties
  • Score: -8

1:25pm Sat 26 Jul 14

naughtykitties says...

Seriously though, Claire, would you take your kids to see bear baiting? Do you think they'd like to see the bears? That'd be animals made to perform in unnatural ways for the entertainment of you and your offspring, just like this circus is doing and quite UNLIKE zoos and sea life centres.

So make an argument in favour of bringing back bear baiting or apologise.
Seriously though, Claire, would you take your kids to see bear baiting? Do you think they'd like to see the bears? That'd be animals made to perform in unnatural ways for the entertainment of you and your offspring, just like this circus is doing and quite UNLIKE zoos and sea life centres. So make an argument in favour of bringing back bear baiting or apologise. naughtykitties
  • Score: -5

2:18pm Sat 26 Jul 14

Claire Fid says...

You really are something else! And the comments that follow mine prove that. You are making your selves look like fools. I have voted and know I will leave you to you're childish antics.
You really are something else! And the comments that follow mine prove that. You are making your selves look like fools. I have voted and know I will leave you to you're childish antics. Claire Fid
  • Score: 5

3:35pm Sat 26 Jul 14

Traveller1701 says...

Growl Tiger wrote:
We followed some of these trucks through Thurstaston on Monday afternoon. Absolutely disgusting as there was a Police Car in front of us that turned off rather than confront the slow and at times static convoy.

A huge red truck on which was hitched a caravan and a horse box followed by another large red vehicle and another horse box. The temperature was up in the high 20s and the vehicles were holding up all the traffic. I just hate to think of the state these animals were in. Wirral Council should ban them from our Peninsula as should every other part of Britain.

Although the Council says it can’t do anything to stop the circus on private land it should stop the advertising on Council property eg traffic barriers in West Kirby.
Ohh so you would rather that lorries with livestock on board would travel at fast and unsafe speeds for the animals in order to be convenient for the other road users? Good thinking. What would the police be confronting the circus folk for then? Using the road in a manner which is appropriate to the precious cargo they have on board? Travelling slower than the national speed limit in order for their best friends who happen to be travelling in the trailers behind them feel safe in their travelling compartments? God forbid.
I have to admit, I just read the 'terms of posting' which are outlined underneath the comments box that I am writing in and they state that I am not to "post anything that is false, abusive or malicious." I think that is something that a lot of people on this thread have overlooked, and while i tend to be an aficionado of sarcasm; falseness, abuse and maliciousness elude me. Hand on heart, every word I say is true. Apparently that is not a universal trait; as exhibited in this discussion thread. Nevertheless...
The amazing animal trainers of Peter Jolly Circus (and indeed, any animal circus in the world) are professionals in their fields. How does a person become a professional? By being the best of the best. How does a person become a professional animal trainer? By being the best person at recognising the behaviours and needs of the animal in their care. If this is not achieved, then the act (and the training system itself) fails to exist. I entreat you to try and "force" an animal, wild or domestic (let alone one who outweighs you by 1000 pounds) to do something they don't want to do. There has to be acceptance, communication and respect between both parties in the relationship. These relationship aspects build rapport.
Think about any single person you have rapport with. I will guarantee that these three aspects are present. And were you forced into any of these personal connections?
Animals are cerebral, sentient beings. Whether wild or domestic, they always have a choice whether to obey the commands they are given or not. Independent of this, Peter Jolly's are a licensed to operate as a travelling circus using wild animals - their license was issued thusly. Obviously there was an official body who deemed it appropriate to issue this license.
There are a lot of problems with this world. Circus animals is not one of them. Honestly, circus serves as a platform for people to demonstrate the love and connection they have with the animals who are their best friends. Why oh why would you condemn that?
[quote][p][bold]Growl Tiger[/bold] wrote: We followed some of these trucks through Thurstaston on Monday afternoon. Absolutely disgusting as there was a Police Car in front of us that turned off rather than confront the slow and at times static convoy. A huge red truck on which was hitched a caravan and a horse box followed by another large red vehicle and another horse box. The temperature was up in the high 20s and the vehicles were holding up all the traffic. I just hate to think of the state these animals were in. Wirral Council should ban them from our Peninsula as should every other part of Britain. Although the Council says it can’t do anything to stop the circus on private land it should stop the advertising on Council property eg traffic barriers in West Kirby.[/p][/quote]Ohh so you would rather that lorries with livestock on board would travel at fast and unsafe speeds for the animals in order to be convenient for the other road users? Good thinking. What would the police be confronting the circus folk for then? Using the road in a manner which is appropriate to the precious cargo they have on board? Travelling slower than the national speed limit in order for their best friends who happen to be travelling in the trailers behind them feel safe in their travelling compartments? God forbid. I have to admit, I just read the 'terms of posting' which are outlined underneath the comments box that I am writing in and they state that I am not to "post anything that is false, abusive or malicious." I think that is something that a lot of people on this thread have overlooked, and while i tend to be an aficionado of sarcasm; falseness, abuse and maliciousness elude me. Hand on heart, every word I say is true. Apparently that is not a universal trait; as exhibited in this discussion thread. Nevertheless... The amazing animal trainers of Peter Jolly Circus (and indeed, any animal circus in the world) are professionals in their fields. How does a person become a professional? By being the best of the best. How does a person become a professional animal trainer? By being the best person at recognising the behaviours and needs of the animal in their care. If this is not achieved, then the act (and the training system itself) fails to exist. I entreat you to try and "force" an animal, wild or domestic (let alone one who outweighs you by 1000 pounds) to do something they don't want to do. There has to be acceptance, communication and respect between both parties in the relationship. These relationship aspects build rapport. Think about any single person you have rapport with. I will guarantee that these three aspects are present. And were you forced into any of these personal connections? Animals are cerebral, sentient beings. Whether wild or domestic, they always have a choice whether to obey the commands they are given or not. Independent of this, Peter Jolly's are a licensed to operate as a travelling circus using wild animals - their license was issued thusly. Obviously there was an official body who deemed it appropriate to issue this license. There are a lot of problems with this world. Circus animals is not one of them. Honestly, circus serves as a platform for people to demonstrate the love and connection they have with the animals who are their best friends. Why oh why would you condemn that? Traveller1701
  • Score: 10

3:36pm Sat 26 Jul 14

uncatom says...

Really Clare ? no one is denying your right to an opinion, however was it not you who attacked those that disagree as Animal Rights and even if some were would you deny them an opinion? so who is making the assumptions? as someone mentioned earlier the majority of those that are giving their support are not regular nor fairly regular visitors on this site, funny that, you also say you have never or will never work for the circus in question, do this suggest that you have worked for another circus?
Really Clare ? no one is denying your right to an opinion, however was it not you who attacked those that disagree as Animal Rights and even if some were would you deny them an opinion? so who is making the assumptions? as someone mentioned earlier the majority of those that are giving their support are not regular nor fairly regular visitors on this site, funny that, you also say you have never or will never work for the circus in question, do this suggest that you have worked for another circus? uncatom
  • Score: 0

3:49pm Sat 26 Jul 14

Traveller1701 says...

Melissa99 wrote:
Jim from NH wrote:
These animals get better healthcare than I do, and maybe better food. If they could talk, they would tell these well meaning but ignorant humans to back off and not spoil their gravy train. These people really haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about. The reality is that most circuses bend over backward to take excellent care of their beloved animals, and the exposure helps bring visibility to their species, assisting with worldwide conservation efforts of these magnificent creatures. These guys call themselves "environmentali

sts", but their actions serve to endanger the very species they are trying to protect. These people really need to study up, sift fact from fiction, and get away from this crowd mentality that shows to those who know just how utterly clueless they are.
Exposure brings visibility to their species? Who doesn't know what a lion or tiger is? And tell me, how exactly is a travelling circus in ENGLAND assisting the conservation of an AFRICAN animal. Complete utter bull you just spouted there. Staff maybe?
Sure you posted something similar on the Middlewich rag!
Tigers are ASIAN, not African. If you are going to "free the oppressed circus animals," make sure they go to the right continent. And I am sure that even the majority of general public in England is interested in the goings on and the population of the world beyond their own front door. Do not presume to believe that every English person is narrow minded and simply consumed by the reality of the world that envelops them from the path of their own front door to Starbucks on the high street.
[quote][p][bold]Melissa99[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jim from NH[/bold] wrote: These animals get better healthcare than I do, and maybe better food. If they could talk, they would tell these well meaning but ignorant humans to back off and not spoil their gravy train. These people really haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about. The reality is that most circuses bend over backward to take excellent care of their beloved animals, and the exposure helps bring visibility to their species, assisting with worldwide conservation efforts of these magnificent creatures. These guys call themselves "environmentali sts", but their actions serve to endanger the very species they are trying to protect. These people really need to study up, sift fact from fiction, and get away from this crowd mentality that shows to those who know just how utterly clueless they are.[/p][/quote]Exposure brings visibility to their species? Who doesn't know what a lion or tiger is? And tell me, how exactly is a travelling circus in ENGLAND assisting the conservation of an AFRICAN animal. Complete utter bull you just spouted there. Staff maybe? Sure you posted something similar on the Middlewich rag![/p][/quote]Tigers are ASIAN, not African. If you are going to "free the oppressed circus animals," make sure they go to the right continent. And I am sure that even the majority of general public in England is interested in the goings on and the population of the world beyond their own front door. Do not presume to believe that every English person is narrow minded and simply consumed by the reality of the world that envelops them from the path of their own front door to Starbucks on the high street. Traveller1701
  • Score: 10

3:57pm Sat 26 Jul 14

Traveller1701 says...

uncatom wrote:
Really Clare ? no one is denying your right to an opinion, however was it not you who attacked those that disagree as Animal Rights and even if some were would you deny them an opinion? so who is making the assumptions? as someone mentioned earlier the majority of those that are giving their support are not regular nor fairly regular visitors on this site, funny that, you also say you have never or will never work for the circus in question, do this suggest that you have worked for another circus?
I'm with Clare. I'll proudly say that I have worked for circuses around the world and solidly stand behind their animal policies. Do you realise that there is actually government legislation to regulate the keeping of animals in circus? There are very strict guidelines, rules, legislation and licences that need to be abided by. It is not a willy-nilly decision, to have animals in a circus. Especially exotic animals.
[quote][p][bold]uncatom[/bold] wrote: Really Clare ? no one is denying your right to an opinion, however was it not you who attacked those that disagree as Animal Rights and even if some were would you deny them an opinion? so who is making the assumptions? as someone mentioned earlier the majority of those that are giving their support are not regular nor fairly regular visitors on this site, funny that, you also say you have never or will never work for the circus in question, do this suggest that you have worked for another circus?[/p][/quote]I'm with Clare. I'll proudly say that I have worked for circuses around the world and solidly stand behind their animal policies. Do you realise that there is actually government legislation to regulate the keeping of animals in circus? There are very strict guidelines, rules, legislation and licences that need to be abided by. It is not a willy-nilly decision, to have animals in a circus. Especially exotic animals. Traveller1701
  • Score: 13

4:50pm Sat 26 Jul 14

uncatom says...

Traveller1701 wrote:
Melissa99 wrote:
Jim from NH wrote:
These animals get better healthcare than I do, and maybe better food. If they could talk, they would tell these well meaning but ignorant humans to back off and not spoil their gravy train. These people really haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about. The reality is that most circuses bend over backward to take excellent care of their beloved animals, and the exposure helps bring visibility to their species, assisting with worldwide conservation efforts of these magnificent creatures. These guys call themselves "environmentali


sts", but their actions serve to endanger the very species they are trying to protect. These people really need to study up, sift fact from fiction, and get away from this crowd mentality that shows to those who know just how utterly clueless they are.
Exposure brings visibility to their species? Who doesn't know what a lion or tiger is? And tell me, how exactly is a travelling circus in ENGLAND assisting the conservation of an AFRICAN animal. Complete utter bull you just spouted there. Staff maybe?
Sure you posted something similar on the Middlewich rag!
Tigers are ASIAN, not African. If you are going to "free the oppressed circus animals," make sure they go to the right continent. And I am sure that even the majority of general public in England is interested in the goings on and the population of the world beyond their own front door. Do not presume to believe that every English person is narrow minded and simply consumed by the reality of the world that envelops them from the path of their own front door to Starbucks on the high street.
Melissa, didn't mention tigers were African if you read the post carefully, she said African animal, so mister big top, do circuses have animals from Africa? is it narrow minded to want the best for a living creature ?or is alright to exploit them for gain, perhaps you think we are yokels that go no further than Starbucks well that is your opinion, but from all accounts there are protests in every place you visit, but hey it must be just the narrow minded few.
[quote][p][bold]Traveller1701[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Melissa99[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jim from NH[/bold] wrote: These animals get better healthcare than I do, and maybe better food. If they could talk, they would tell these well meaning but ignorant humans to back off and not spoil their gravy train. These people really haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about. The reality is that most circuses bend over backward to take excellent care of their beloved animals, and the exposure helps bring visibility to their species, assisting with worldwide conservation efforts of these magnificent creatures. These guys call themselves "environmentali sts", but their actions serve to endanger the very species they are trying to protect. These people really need to study up, sift fact from fiction, and get away from this crowd mentality that shows to those who know just how utterly clueless they are.[/p][/quote]Exposure brings visibility to their species? Who doesn't know what a lion or tiger is? And tell me, how exactly is a travelling circus in ENGLAND assisting the conservation of an AFRICAN animal. Complete utter bull you just spouted there. Staff maybe? Sure you posted something similar on the Middlewich rag![/p][/quote]Tigers are ASIAN, not African. If you are going to "free the oppressed circus animals," make sure they go to the right continent. And I am sure that even the majority of general public in England is interested in the goings on and the population of the world beyond their own front door. Do not presume to believe that every English person is narrow minded and simply consumed by the reality of the world that envelops them from the path of their own front door to Starbucks on the high street.[/p][/quote]Melissa, didn't mention tigers were African if you read the post carefully, she said African animal, so mister big top, do circuses have animals from Africa? is it narrow minded to want the best for a living creature ?or is alright to exploit them for gain, perhaps you think we are yokels that go no further than Starbucks well that is your opinion, but from all accounts there are protests in every place you visit, but hey it must be just the narrow minded few. uncatom
  • Score: -6

5:17pm Sat 26 Jul 14

elisab says...

Lawd the real life circus clowns are out again voting en-mass in their lunch break out of the ring! LOL, once again they are falsifying the comment votes in order to make themselves feel better about what they do. The fact they feel the need to do this speaks volumes as it is evident they know they are going against the strong tide of opinion and trying to convince themselves by altering the views of the majority who are opposed to the use of performing animals... animals with NO choice in that. Grow up Jolly employees, if you were really proud of what you are involved with you would not feel the need to go on such an aggressive backlash via local media sites such as this and every other location you pitch up at. Doesn't that tell you something? You are in the minority, everywhere. Of course if you were that good at your job you wouldn't need to exploit animals to pay your bills as you would be funny and entertaining enough to rake in the moula by your own human talents... or maybe that's the issue right there........... (queue negative fake votes from the traveling Ronald McDonalds & their posse. lol)
Lawd the real life circus clowns are out again voting en-mass in their lunch break out of the ring! LOL, once again they are falsifying the comment votes in order to make themselves feel better about what they do. The fact they feel the need to do this speaks volumes as it is evident they know they are going against the strong tide of opinion and trying to convince themselves by altering the views of the majority who are opposed to the use of performing animals... animals with NO choice in that. Grow up Jolly employees, if you were really proud of what you are involved with you would not feel the need to go on such an aggressive backlash via local media sites such as this and every other location you pitch up at. Doesn't that tell you something? You are in the minority, everywhere. Of course if you were that good at your job you wouldn't need to exploit animals to pay your bills as you would be funny and entertaining enough to rake in the moula by your own human talents... or maybe that's the issue right there........... (queue negative fake votes from the traveling Ronald McDonalds & their posse. lol) elisab
  • Score: 15

5:48pm Sat 26 Jul 14

InFavorOfCircus says...

WOW! "elisab" sure has a high and mighty opinion of their animal extremists. Rude awakening: It's YOU that is in the minority. Most people use common sense and logic and know that circus animals are loved and well cared for. It is YOUR side that makes false statements, slanders, and hates. Quick question "elisab"....are you just a circus hater or are you also vegan?
WOW! "elisab" sure has a high and mighty opinion of their animal extremists. Rude awakening: It's YOU that is in the minority. Most people use common sense and logic and know that circus animals are loved and well cared for. It is YOUR side that makes false statements, slanders, and hates. Quick question "elisab"....are you just a circus hater or are you also vegan? InFavorOfCircus
  • Score: -10

5:55pm Sat 26 Jul 14

Traveller1701 says...

uncatom wrote:
Traveller1701 wrote:
Melissa99 wrote:
Jim from NH wrote:
These animals get better healthcare than I do, and maybe better food. If they could talk, they would tell these well meaning but ignorant humans to back off and not spoil their gravy train. These people really haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about. The reality is that most circuses bend over backward to take excellent care of their beloved animals, and the exposure helps bring visibility to their species, assisting with worldwide conservation efforts of these magnificent creatures. These guys call themselves "environmentali



sts", but their actions serve to endanger the very species they are trying to protect. These people really need to study up, sift fact from fiction, and get away from this crowd mentality that shows to those who know just how utterly clueless they are.
Exposure brings visibility to their species? Who doesn't know what a lion or tiger is? And tell me, how exactly is a travelling circus in ENGLAND assisting the conservation of an AFRICAN animal. Complete utter bull you just spouted there. Staff maybe?
Sure you posted something similar on the Middlewich rag!
Tigers are ASIAN, not African. If you are going to "free the oppressed circus animals," make sure they go to the right continent. And I am sure that even the majority of general public in England is interested in the goings on and the population of the world beyond their own front door. Do not presume to believe that every English person is narrow minded and simply consumed by the reality of the world that envelops them from the path of their own front door to Starbucks on the high street.
Melissa, didn't mention tigers were African if you read the post carefully, she said African animal, so mister big top, do circuses have animals from Africa? is it narrow minded to want the best for a living creature ?or is alright to exploit them for gain, perhaps you think we are yokels that go no further than Starbucks well that is your opinion, but from all accounts there are protests in every place you visit, but hey it must be just the narrow minded few.
Yes, some circuses have native African animals. Some have native Asian animals. Some have native Australian animals. Some have native European animals. I don't think that it is narrow minded at all to believe that an animal deserves the best treatment it can get. But I honestly believe that it is narrow minded to believe that a circus environment is not the best treatment an animal can get. I DO believe it is narrow minded to believe that animals and their trainers do not have complex, loving and multifaceted relationships built on love and respect. I believe that it is very easy to judge something that you know very little about, just as I believe it takes a great amount of faith and trust to believe that another human being (a professional in their respected industry) knows more than I do about the health and wellbeing of an animal in their care.
[quote][p][bold]uncatom[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Traveller1701[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Melissa99[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jim from NH[/bold] wrote: These animals get better healthcare than I do, and maybe better food. If they could talk, they would tell these well meaning but ignorant humans to back off and not spoil their gravy train. These people really haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about. The reality is that most circuses bend over backward to take excellent care of their beloved animals, and the exposure helps bring visibility to their species, assisting with worldwide conservation efforts of these magnificent creatures. These guys call themselves "environmentali sts", but their actions serve to endanger the very species they are trying to protect. These people really need to study up, sift fact from fiction, and get away from this crowd mentality that shows to those who know just how utterly clueless they are.[/p][/quote]Exposure brings visibility to their species? Who doesn't know what a lion or tiger is? And tell me, how exactly is a travelling circus in ENGLAND assisting the conservation of an AFRICAN animal. Complete utter bull you just spouted there. Staff maybe? Sure you posted something similar on the Middlewich rag![/p][/quote]Tigers are ASIAN, not African. If you are going to "free the oppressed circus animals," make sure they go to the right continent. And I am sure that even the majority of general public in England is interested in the goings on and the population of the world beyond their own front door. Do not presume to believe that every English person is narrow minded and simply consumed by the reality of the world that envelops them from the path of their own front door to Starbucks on the high street.[/p][/quote]Melissa, didn't mention tigers were African if you read the post carefully, she said African animal, so mister big top, do circuses have animals from Africa? is it narrow minded to want the best for a living creature ?or is alright to exploit them for gain, perhaps you think we are yokels that go no further than Starbucks well that is your opinion, but from all accounts there are protests in every place you visit, but hey it must be just the narrow minded few.[/p][/quote]Yes, some circuses have native African animals. Some have native Asian animals. Some have native Australian animals. Some have native European animals. I don't think that it is narrow minded at all to believe that an animal deserves the best treatment it can get. But I honestly believe that it is narrow minded to believe that a circus environment is not the best treatment an animal can get. I DO believe it is narrow minded to believe that animals and their trainers do not have complex, loving and multifaceted relationships built on love and respect. I believe that it is very easy to judge something that you know very little about, just as I believe it takes a great amount of faith and trust to believe that another human being (a professional in their respected industry) knows more than I do about the health and wellbeing of an animal in their care. Traveller1701
  • Score: 8

6:45pm Sat 26 Jul 14

elisab says...

RE: 'infavorofcircus' (clearly not local given the spelling there, or maybe just dense)... but, I digress. LOL, Oh deary me, wheel out the stock standard response to anyone who dares post an opposing view on anything regarding animal concerns... 'you must be a hater or a vegan'!
Seriously that is seemingly the only retort some people have in their flimsy arsenal.

Like the majority, please do not fool yourself into thinking any differently regarding that, I simply feel the use of large animals made to perform unnatural tricks, tricks undoubtedly taught through an element of trepidation, is wrong. It is an archaic practice which predominately survives in less 'forward' Countries. Is this the only concern regarding animal welfare in the UK? No, but THIS is the story in hand and so that is the focus of local peoples concerns. The fact that the comment votes have obviously been altered, and pro comments made by people clearly not local or regular posters to this paper, is proof positive that there is an active campaign to falsify views for whatever frankly pitiful attempt to sway opinion. The fact also that there is a story on the front page that has peoples opinions garnered from the Globe, and which does not have a voting application open to tampering, is proof as to how many people actually feel. They (you) do themselves no favours by going on this offensive, in fact it does the campaign no benefit whatsoever as people see through it and are rightly distrustful.

As with anyone who has a modicum of compassion and sense all I wish is for all animals to live as close to a 'natural' life as feasibly possible... free from fear, pain, sadness, and human exploitation, and I do not believe that can possibly occur in a travelling circus environment. The deaths of animals in Jollys 'care' is evident to that. One death is too many, multiple criminal. I would truly hope the animals are well cared for behind the scenes away from public and inspectors view, but the quality of their life cannot be classed as anything other than poor, restricted and unnatural. Being bred within the industry opens up a whole other concern, you bet your dollar that its not all hearts and roses. Evidently I am not alone in these concerns.

Why do you think there are not many more UK big tops exploiting animals? Why do you think councils refuse them on their land? Why do you think there is public backlash EVERYWHERE these dwindling circuses go? If the general public is, as you seem to infer, so in favour, why isn't this practice booming? Remove your rubber nose and really think about it.
RE: 'infavorofcircus' (clearly not local given the spelling there, or maybe just dense)... but, I digress. LOL, Oh deary me, wheel out the stock standard response to anyone who dares post an opposing view on anything regarding animal concerns... 'you must be a hater or a vegan'! Seriously that is seemingly the only retort some people have in their flimsy arsenal. Like the majority, please do not fool yourself into thinking any differently regarding that, I simply feel the use of large animals made to perform unnatural tricks, tricks undoubtedly taught through an element of trepidation, is wrong. It is an archaic practice which predominately survives in less 'forward' Countries. Is this the only concern regarding animal welfare in the UK? No, but THIS is the story in hand and so that is the focus of local peoples concerns. The fact that the comment votes have obviously been altered, and pro comments made by people clearly not local or regular posters to this paper, is proof positive that there is an active campaign to falsify views for whatever frankly pitiful attempt to sway opinion. The fact also that there is a story on the front page that has peoples opinions garnered from the Globe, and which does not have a voting application open to tampering, is proof as to how many people actually feel. They (you) do themselves no favours by going on this offensive, in fact it does the campaign no benefit whatsoever as people see through it and are rightly distrustful. As with anyone who has a modicum of compassion and sense all I wish is for all animals to live as close to a 'natural' life as feasibly possible... free from fear, pain, sadness, and human exploitation, and I do not believe that can possibly occur in a travelling circus environment. The deaths of animals in Jollys 'care' is evident to that. One death is too many, multiple criminal. I would truly hope the animals are well cared for behind the scenes away from public and inspectors view, but the quality of their life cannot be classed as anything other than poor, restricted and unnatural. Being bred within the industry opens up a whole other concern, you bet your dollar that its not all hearts and roses. Evidently I am not alone in these concerns. Why do you think there are not many more UK big tops exploiting animals? Why do you think councils refuse them on their land? Why do you think there is public backlash EVERYWHERE these dwindling circuses go? If the general public is, as you seem to infer, so in favour, why isn't this practice booming? Remove your rubber nose and really think about it. elisab
  • Score: 11

7:40pm Sat 26 Jul 14

naughtykitties says...

ITT: Circus shills complaining about the fact people think large cats shouldn't be kept in tiny boxes and made to do tricks.
ITT: Circus shills complaining about the fact people think large cats shouldn't be kept in tiny boxes and made to do tricks. naughtykitties
  • Score: -2

5:33am Sun 27 Jul 14

VickieS says...

Imagine if everything we did in life and how we lived our lives was dictated to us by some self righteous loudmouths with an ignorant opinion & just because something you did wasn't right to them ,they would harrass, bully & slander you and your profession because of something they thought or based on what somebody else told them. Oh hang on.. That is most of you people commenting on this story and stroking their ego with a mouse.
You have probably guessed by now I support circuses with animals. Infact, I grew up in the circus & was at the forefront of a recent WIN for Australian circuses where we had a ban by The Gold Coast City Council on Circuses with animals rightfully overturned. We also won a public vote 75% in favour of circuses with performing animals aslong as they are well cared for...
Circuses with animals all over the world have very strict conditions and standards to comply with that are enforced by local & federal government agencies. They carry out regular inspections by people who actually have formal qualifications, usually veterinarian, and they also have many years of actual hands on experience with domestic & exotic animals yet you embarrass yourself & insult their intelligence with your baseless opinion..
Training any animal is no different to how you train a child. Yes, no, stop ,go,here,sit,stay. The only difference is that animals are easier than humans to train. I'm not denying that there have been some shonky circuses in the past & some past practices , especially cage sizes in circus 50+ years ago are questionable but unlike many of you,circus has evolved & learnt from the past . The only real animal abuse is what humans in the real world do to not only animals but other humans and because of a few bad eggs you want to tar circuses all with the same brush with the level abuse that has and still manages to get worse in your nieghborhood .Circuses don't have refuges for our animals. We don't dump them when we're done & I know in Australia that no circus in over 50yrs has been charged for any animal abuse .
If you really cared about animals being abused you wouldnt have all of the animal welfare groups and animal shelters overflowing with abused and abandoned animals but instead you pat yourself on the back trying to save animals that don't need saving.
Well done & congratulations for making this world what it is today where somebody can know everything about absolutely nothing yet still feel like they contribute substance to society.. Awwww Bless
Imagine if everything we did in life and how we lived our lives was dictated to us by some self righteous loudmouths with an ignorant opinion & just because something you did wasn't right to them ,they would harrass, bully & slander you and your profession because of something they thought or based on what somebody else told them. Oh hang on.. That is most of you people commenting on this story and stroking their ego with a mouse. You have probably guessed by now I support circuses with animals. Infact, I grew up in the circus & was at the forefront of a recent WIN for Australian circuses where we had a ban by The Gold Coast City Council on Circuses with animals rightfully overturned. We also won a public vote 75% in favour of circuses with performing animals aslong as they are well cared for... Circuses with animals all over the world have very strict conditions and standards to comply with that are enforced by local & federal government agencies. They carry out regular inspections by people who actually have formal qualifications, usually veterinarian, and they also have many years of actual hands on experience with domestic & exotic animals yet you embarrass yourself & insult their intelligence with your baseless opinion.. Training any animal is no different to how you train a child. Yes, no, stop ,go,here,sit,stay. The only difference is that animals are easier than humans to train. I'm not denying that there have been some shonky circuses in the past & some past practices , especially cage sizes in circus 50+ years ago are questionable but unlike many of you,circus has evolved & learnt from the past . The only real animal abuse is what humans in the real world do to not only animals but other humans and because of a few bad eggs you want to tar circuses all with the same brush with the level abuse that has and still manages to get worse in your nieghborhood .Circuses don't have refuges for our animals. We don't dump them when we're done & I know in Australia that no circus in over 50yrs has been charged for any animal abuse . If you really cared about animals being abused you wouldnt have all of the animal welfare groups and animal shelters overflowing with abused and abandoned animals but instead you pat yourself on the back trying to save animals that don't need saving. Well done & congratulations for making this world what it is today where somebody can know everything about absolutely nothing yet still feel like they contribute substance to society.. Awwww Bless VickieS
  • Score: -21

6:02am Sun 27 Jul 14

VickieS says...

elisab wrote:
RE: 'infavorofcircus' (clearly not local given the spelling there, or maybe just dense)... but, I digress. LOL, Oh deary me, wheel out the stock standard response to anyone who dares post an opposing view on anything regarding animal concerns... 'you must be a hater or a vegan'!
Seriously that is seemingly the only retort some people have in their flimsy arsenal.

Like the majority, please do not fool yourself into thinking any differently regarding that, I simply feel the use of large animals made to perform unnatural tricks, tricks undoubtedly taught through an element of trepidation, is wrong. It is an archaic practice which predominately survives in less 'forward' Countries. Is this the only concern regarding animal welfare in the UK? No, but THIS is the story in hand and so that is the focus of local peoples concerns. The fact that the comment votes have obviously been altered, and pro comments made by people clearly not local or regular posters to this paper, is proof positive that there is an active campaign to falsify views for whatever frankly pitiful attempt to sway opinion. The fact also that there is a story on the front page that has peoples opinions garnered from the Globe, and which does not have a voting application open to tampering, is proof as to how many people actually feel. They (you) do themselves no favours by going on this offensive, in fact it does the campaign no benefit whatsoever as people see through it and are rightly distrustful.

As with anyone who has a modicum of compassion and sense all I wish is for all animals to live as close to a 'natural' life as feasibly possible... free from fear, pain, sadness, and human exploitation, and I do not believe that can possibly occur in a travelling circus environment. The deaths of animals in Jollys 'care' is evident to that. One death is too many, multiple criminal. I would truly hope the animals are well cared for behind the scenes away from public and inspectors view, but the quality of their life cannot be classed as anything other than poor, restricted and unnatural. Being bred within the industry opens up a whole other concern, you bet your dollar that its not all hearts and roses. Evidently I am not alone in these concerns.

Why do you think there are not many more UK big tops exploiting animals? Why do you think councils refuse them on their land? Why do you think there is public backlash EVERYWHERE these dwindling circuses go? If the general public is, as you seem to infer, so in favour, why isn't this practice booming? Remove your rubber nose and really think about it.
sorry to point out your ignorance regarding the opinionated dribble you self righteously proclaim to be fact. Maybe you are just dense or just haven't heard of Google where you could have researched facts b4 showcasing to the world that your a friggin moron
[quote][p][bold]elisab[/bold] wrote: RE: 'infavorofcircus' (clearly not local given the spelling there, or maybe just dense)... but, I digress. LOL, Oh deary me, wheel out the stock standard response to anyone who dares post an opposing view on anything regarding animal concerns... 'you must be a hater or a vegan'! Seriously that is seemingly the only retort some people have in their flimsy arsenal. Like the majority, please do not fool yourself into thinking any differently regarding that, I simply feel the use of large animals made to perform unnatural tricks, tricks undoubtedly taught through an element of trepidation, is wrong. It is an archaic practice which predominately survives in less 'forward' Countries. Is this the only concern regarding animal welfare in the UK? No, but THIS is the story in hand and so that is the focus of local peoples concerns. The fact that the comment votes have obviously been altered, and pro comments made by people clearly not local or regular posters to this paper, is proof positive that there is an active campaign to falsify views for whatever frankly pitiful attempt to sway opinion. The fact also that there is a story on the front page that has peoples opinions garnered from the Globe, and which does not have a voting application open to tampering, is proof as to how many people actually feel. They (you) do themselves no favours by going on this offensive, in fact it does the campaign no benefit whatsoever as people see through it and are rightly distrustful. As with anyone who has a modicum of compassion and sense all I wish is for all animals to live as close to a 'natural' life as feasibly possible... free from fear, pain, sadness, and human exploitation, and I do not believe that can possibly occur in a travelling circus environment. The deaths of animals in Jollys 'care' is evident to that. One death is too many, multiple criminal. I would truly hope the animals are well cared for behind the scenes away from public and inspectors view, but the quality of their life cannot be classed as anything other than poor, restricted and unnatural. Being bred within the industry opens up a whole other concern, you bet your dollar that its not all hearts and roses. Evidently I am not alone in these concerns. Why do you think there are not many more UK big tops exploiting animals? Why do you think councils refuse them on their land? Why do you think there is public backlash EVERYWHERE these dwindling circuses go? If the general public is, as you seem to infer, so in favour, why isn't this practice booming? Remove your rubber nose and really think about it.[/p][/quote]sorry to point out your ignorance regarding the opinionated dribble you self righteously proclaim to be fact. Maybe you are just dense or just haven't heard of Google where you could have researched facts b4 showcasing to the world that your a friggin moron VickieS
  • Score: -41

10:06am Sun 27 Jul 14

jeselis says...

VickieS wrote:
elisab wrote:
RE: 'infavorofcircus' (clearly not local given the spelling there, or maybe just dense)... but, I digress. LOL, Oh deary me, wheel out the stock standard response to anyone who dares post an opposing view on anything regarding animal concerns... 'you must be a hater or a vegan'!
Seriously that is seemingly the only retort some people have in their flimsy arsenal.

Like the majority, please do not fool yourself into thinking any differently regarding that, I simply feel the use of large animals made to perform unnatural tricks, tricks undoubtedly taught through an element of trepidation, is wrong. It is an archaic practice which predominately survives in less 'forward' Countries. Is this the only concern regarding animal welfare in the UK? No, but THIS is the story in hand and so that is the focus of local peoples concerns. The fact that the comment votes have obviously been altered, and pro comments made by people clearly not local or regular posters to this paper, is proof positive that there is an active campaign to falsify views for whatever frankly pitiful attempt to sway opinion. The fact also that there is a story on the front page that has peoples opinions garnered from the Globe, and which does not have a voting application open to tampering, is proof as to how many people actually feel. They (you) do themselves no favours by going on this offensive, in fact it does the campaign no benefit whatsoever as people see through it and are rightly distrustful.

As with anyone who has a modicum of compassion and sense all I wish is for all animals to live as close to a 'natural' life as feasibly possible... free from fear, pain, sadness, and human exploitation, and I do not believe that can possibly occur in a travelling circus environment. The deaths of animals in Jollys 'care' is evident to that. One death is too many, multiple criminal. I would truly hope the animals are well cared for behind the scenes away from public and inspectors view, but the quality of their life cannot be classed as anything other than poor, restricted and unnatural. Being bred within the industry opens up a whole other concern, you bet your dollar that its not all hearts and roses. Evidently I am not alone in these concerns.

Why do you think there are not many more UK big tops exploiting animals? Why do you think councils refuse them on their land? Why do you think there is public backlash EVERYWHERE these dwindling circuses go? If the general public is, as you seem to infer, so in favour, why isn't this practice booming? Remove your rubber nose and really think about it.
sorry to point out your ignorance regarding the opinionated dribble you self righteously proclaim to be fact. Maybe you are just dense or just haven't heard of Google where you could have researched facts b4 showcasing to the world that your a friggin moron
Oh VickieS, what a silly silly little girl you come across as. I could say that one assumes you were looking in a mirror when you made that comment as quite clearly it relates to yourself rather than anything others have said, but that, just as your comment, would add nothing of substance to this debate. The post you quoted actually makes perfectly valid points to add to the debate, but seemingly your own narrow minded view for whatever reason has completely swerved that in favour of slandering the poster. You see what you want to see without actually reading and taking in exactly what was written. How you can say the post was ignorant then post something in response which itself is hugely nescient would be quite amusing, if it was not so pointless and seemingly indicative of many new fly-by contributors on here, most of whom will likely be posting the exact same diatribe on the news pages of the next town the circus visits. Curious that...............
[quote][p][bold]VickieS[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]elisab[/bold] wrote: RE: 'infavorofcircus' (clearly not local given the spelling there, or maybe just dense)... but, I digress. LOL, Oh deary me, wheel out the stock standard response to anyone who dares post an opposing view on anything regarding animal concerns... 'you must be a hater or a vegan'! Seriously that is seemingly the only retort some people have in their flimsy arsenal. Like the majority, please do not fool yourself into thinking any differently regarding that, I simply feel the use of large animals made to perform unnatural tricks, tricks undoubtedly taught through an element of trepidation, is wrong. It is an archaic practice which predominately survives in less 'forward' Countries. Is this the only concern regarding animal welfare in the UK? No, but THIS is the story in hand and so that is the focus of local peoples concerns. The fact that the comment votes have obviously been altered, and pro comments made by people clearly not local or regular posters to this paper, is proof positive that there is an active campaign to falsify views for whatever frankly pitiful attempt to sway opinion. The fact also that there is a story on the front page that has peoples opinions garnered from the Globe, and which does not have a voting application open to tampering, is proof as to how many people actually feel. They (you) do themselves no favours by going on this offensive, in fact it does the campaign no benefit whatsoever as people see through it and are rightly distrustful. As with anyone who has a modicum of compassion and sense all I wish is for all animals to live as close to a 'natural' life as feasibly possible... free from fear, pain, sadness, and human exploitation, and I do not believe that can possibly occur in a travelling circus environment. The deaths of animals in Jollys 'care' is evident to that. One death is too many, multiple criminal. I would truly hope the animals are well cared for behind the scenes away from public and inspectors view, but the quality of their life cannot be classed as anything other than poor, restricted and unnatural. Being bred within the industry opens up a whole other concern, you bet your dollar that its not all hearts and roses. Evidently I am not alone in these concerns. Why do you think there are not many more UK big tops exploiting animals? Why do you think councils refuse them on their land? Why do you think there is public backlash EVERYWHERE these dwindling circuses go? If the general public is, as you seem to infer, so in favour, why isn't this practice booming? Remove your rubber nose and really think about it.[/p][/quote]sorry to point out your ignorance regarding the opinionated dribble you self righteously proclaim to be fact. Maybe you are just dense or just haven't heard of Google where you could have researched facts b4 showcasing to the world that your a friggin moron[/p][/quote]Oh VickieS, what a silly silly little girl you come across as. I could say that one assumes you were looking in a mirror when you made that comment as quite clearly it relates to yourself rather than anything others have said, but that, just as your comment, would add nothing of substance to this debate. The post you quoted actually makes perfectly valid points to add to the debate, but seemingly your own narrow minded view for whatever reason has completely swerved that in favour of slandering the poster. You see what you want to see without actually reading and taking in exactly what was written. How you can say the post was ignorant then post something in response which itself is hugely nescient would be quite amusing, if it was not so pointless and seemingly indicative of many new fly-by contributors on here, most of whom will likely be posting the exact same diatribe on the news pages of the next town the circus visits. Curious that............... jeselis
  • Score: 38

1:26am Mon 28 Jul 14

pooboy says...

Anyone with an once of sense will realise these comments and the ratings have been manipulated by the circus employees!
It's pretty sad they have had to do this, as surely they shouldnt care what people think, as long as they have nothing to be concerned about.
The fact they all jump on here is laughable and downright pathetic.
I won't worry of the thumbs downs I get as I couldnt care less!
As for the "circus" in more ways than one...we passed there on Saturday and there was about 6 cars parked at showtime. I think we wont be seeing them back here again anytime soon.
I didnt take my kids,because I never went as a kid and it doesnt interest them. If they want to see animals, I take them to Knowsley safari park....I have no bias either way.Im pretty sure the thumbs downs on here are due to the angry circus employess who have probably worked hard to create a show,yet people of wirral werent interested(bad time to come with the free giants of liverpool...bad planning by the circus..!) and voted with their feet.Doubt we will see them anytime soon................
.
Anyone with an once of sense will realise these comments and the ratings have been manipulated by the circus employees! It's pretty sad they have had to do this, as surely they shouldnt care what people think, as long as they have nothing to be concerned about. The fact they all jump on here is laughable and downright pathetic. I won't worry of the thumbs downs I get as I couldnt care less! As for the "circus" in more ways than one...we passed there on Saturday and there was about 6 cars parked at showtime. I think we wont be seeing them back here again anytime soon. I didnt take my kids,because I never went as a kid and it doesnt interest them. If they want to see animals, I take them to Knowsley safari park....I have no bias either way.Im pretty sure the thumbs downs on here are due to the angry circus employess who have probably worked hard to create a show,yet people of wirral werent interested(bad time to come with the free giants of liverpool...bad planning by the circus..!) and voted with their feet.Doubt we will see them anytime soon................ . pooboy
  • Score: -5

4:10pm Mon 28 Jul 14

Circus lover says...

pooboy wrote:
Anyone with an once of sense will realise these comments and the ratings have been manipulated by the circus employees!
It's pretty sad they have had to do this, as surely they shouldnt care what people think, as long as they have nothing to be concerned about.
The fact they all jump on here is laughable and downright pathetic.
I won't worry of the thumbs downs I get as I couldnt care less!
As for the "circus" in more ways than one...we passed there on Saturday and there was about 6 cars parked at showtime. I think we wont be seeing them back here again anytime soon.
I didnt take my kids,because I never went as a kid and it doesnt interest them. If they want to see animals, I take them to Knowsley safari park....I have no bias either way.Im pretty sure the thumbs downs on here are due to the angry circus employess who have probably worked hard to create a show,yet people of wirral werent interested(bad time to come with the free giants of liverpool...bad planning by the circus..!) and voted with their feet.Doubt we will see them anytime soon................

.
Surely they shouldn't care what people think? when these people are trying to remove their livliehood - and If you want to take your kids to Knowsley I'm sure that's fine but you may want to look up why there were protests there in 2011 before making them out to be better than the circuses who love and care for their animals.

PS to prempt anyone claiming as I disagree with their views that I must be a circus employee, I am an IT analyst and former college lecturer and I formed my opinions on this circus by visiting and seeing the animals for myself I was luck enough to see it when they came around last year and Thomas was kind enough to let me see his training techniques - Guess what they are the exact same as I would use to train my dog, train and reward. For those saying it's barbaric animals living in fear - I suggest that is their life in the wild living in fear, maybe if you wat5ched some documentaries instead of getting your ideas on animal behaviour from Disney films.

To answer a previous point that states polls in the paper show anti circus protesters to be in the majority, I'd say the fact there are more people in the tent than there are protesting outside the tent would counter that. But as we all know 63% of all statistics are made up
[quote][p][bold]pooboy[/bold] wrote: Anyone with an once of sense will realise these comments and the ratings have been manipulated by the circus employees! It's pretty sad they have had to do this, as surely they shouldnt care what people think, as long as they have nothing to be concerned about. The fact they all jump on here is laughable and downright pathetic. I won't worry of the thumbs downs I get as I couldnt care less! As for the "circus" in more ways than one...we passed there on Saturday and there was about 6 cars parked at showtime. I think we wont be seeing them back here again anytime soon. I didnt take my kids,because I never went as a kid and it doesnt interest them. If they want to see animals, I take them to Knowsley safari park....I have no bias either way.Im pretty sure the thumbs downs on here are due to the angry circus employess who have probably worked hard to create a show,yet people of wirral werent interested(bad time to come with the free giants of liverpool...bad planning by the circus..!) and voted with their feet.Doubt we will see them anytime soon................ .[/p][/quote]Surely they shouldn't care what people think? when these people are trying to remove their livliehood - and If you want to take your kids to Knowsley I'm sure that's fine but you may want to look up why there were protests there in 2011 before making them out to be better than the circuses who love and care for their animals. PS to prempt anyone claiming as I disagree with their views that I must be a circus employee, I am an IT analyst and former college lecturer and I formed my opinions on this circus by visiting and seeing the animals for myself I was luck enough to see it when they came around last year and Thomas was kind enough to let me see his training techniques - Guess what they are the exact same as I would use to train my dog, train and reward. For those saying it's barbaric animals living in fear - I suggest that is their life in the wild living in fear, maybe if you wat5ched some documentaries instead of getting your ideas on animal behaviour from Disney films. To answer a previous point that states polls in the paper show anti circus protesters to be in the majority, I'd say the fact there are more people in the tent than there are protesting outside the tent would counter that. But as we all know 63% of all statistics are made up Circus lover
  • Score: 4

8:33am Tue 29 Jul 14

lilianc says...

Traveller1701 wrote:
Growl Tiger wrote:
We followed some of these trucks through Thurstaston on Monday afternoon. Absolutely disgusting as there was a Police Car in front of us that turned off rather than confront the slow and at times static convoy.

A huge red truck on which was hitched a caravan and a horse box followed by another large red vehicle and another horse box. The temperature was up in the high 20s and the vehicles were holding up all the traffic. I just hate to think of the state these animals were in. Wirral Council should ban them from our Peninsula as should every other part of Britain.

Although the Council says it can’t do anything to stop the circus on private land it should stop the advertising on Council property eg traffic barriers in West Kirby.
Ohh so you would rather that lorries with livestock on board would travel at fast and unsafe speeds for the animals in order to be convenient for the other road users? Good thinking. What would the police be confronting the circus folk for then? Using the road in a manner which is appropriate to the precious cargo they have on board? Travelling slower than the national speed limit in order for their best friends who happen to be travelling in the trailers behind them feel safe in their travelling compartments? God forbid.
I have to admit, I just read the 'terms of posting' which are outlined underneath the comments box that I am writing in and they state that I am not to "post anything that is false, abusive or malicious." I think that is something that a lot of people on this thread have overlooked, and while i tend to be an aficionado of sarcasm; falseness, abuse and maliciousness elude me. Hand on heart, every word I say is true. Apparently that is not a universal trait; as exhibited in this discussion thread. Nevertheless...
The amazing animal trainers of Peter Jolly Circus (and indeed, any animal circus in the world) are professionals in their fields. How does a person become a professional? By being the best of the best. How does a person become a professional animal trainer? By being the best person at recognising the behaviours and needs of the animal in their care. If this is not achieved, then the act (and the training system itself) fails to exist. I entreat you to try and "force" an animal, wild or domestic (let alone one who outweighs you by 1000 pounds) to do something they don't want to do. There has to be acceptance, communication and respect between both parties in the relationship. These relationship aspects build rapport.
Think about any single person you have rapport with. I will guarantee that these three aspects are present. And were you forced into any of these personal connections?
Animals are cerebral, sentient beings. Whether wild or domestic, they always have a choice whether to obey the commands they are given or not. Independent of this, Peter Jolly's are a licensed to operate as a travelling circus using wild animals - their license was issued thusly. Obviously there was an official body who deemed it appropriate to issue this license.
There are a lot of problems with this world. Circus animals is not one of them. Honestly, circus serves as a platform for people to demonstrate the love and connection they have with the animals who are their best friends. Why oh why would you condemn that?
****! Animals are scared into SUBMISSION!.....by beating..electrical prods etc !
[quote][p][bold]Traveller1701[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Growl Tiger[/bold] wrote: We followed some of these trucks through Thurstaston on Monday afternoon. Absolutely disgusting as there was a Police Car in front of us that turned off rather than confront the slow and at times static convoy. A huge red truck on which was hitched a caravan and a horse box followed by another large red vehicle and another horse box. The temperature was up in the high 20s and the vehicles were holding up all the traffic. I just hate to think of the state these animals were in. Wirral Council should ban them from our Peninsula as should every other part of Britain. Although the Council says it can’t do anything to stop the circus on private land it should stop the advertising on Council property eg traffic barriers in West Kirby.[/p][/quote]Ohh so you would rather that lorries with livestock on board would travel at fast and unsafe speeds for the animals in order to be convenient for the other road users? Good thinking. What would the police be confronting the circus folk for then? Using the road in a manner which is appropriate to the precious cargo they have on board? Travelling slower than the national speed limit in order for their best friends who happen to be travelling in the trailers behind them feel safe in their travelling compartments? God forbid. I have to admit, I just read the 'terms of posting' which are outlined underneath the comments box that I am writing in and they state that I am not to "post anything that is false, abusive or malicious." I think that is something that a lot of people on this thread have overlooked, and while i tend to be an aficionado of sarcasm; falseness, abuse and maliciousness elude me. Hand on heart, every word I say is true. Apparently that is not a universal trait; as exhibited in this discussion thread. Nevertheless... The amazing animal trainers of Peter Jolly Circus (and indeed, any animal circus in the world) are professionals in their fields. How does a person become a professional? By being the best of the best. How does a person become a professional animal trainer? By being the best person at recognising the behaviours and needs of the animal in their care. If this is not achieved, then the act (and the training system itself) fails to exist. I entreat you to try and "force" an animal, wild or domestic (let alone one who outweighs you by 1000 pounds) to do something they don't want to do. There has to be acceptance, communication and respect between both parties in the relationship. These relationship aspects build rapport. Think about any single person you have rapport with. I will guarantee that these three aspects are present. And were you forced into any of these personal connections? Animals are cerebral, sentient beings. Whether wild or domestic, they always have a choice whether to obey the commands they are given or not. Independent of this, Peter Jolly's are a licensed to operate as a travelling circus using wild animals - their license was issued thusly. Obviously there was an official body who deemed it appropriate to issue this license. There are a lot of problems with this world. Circus animals is not one of them. Honestly, circus serves as a platform for people to demonstrate the love and connection they have with the animals who are their best friends. Why oh why would you condemn that?[/p][/quote]****! Animals are scared into SUBMISSION!.....by beating..electrical prods etc ! lilianc
  • Score: -7

8:36am Tue 29 Jul 14

lilianc says...

jdd_london wrote:
I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom.

This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met.

However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses.

The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises.

To quote her:

“..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).”

A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated:

“A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence”

They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other
captive environments.

The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear.

Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012

It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.
Rubbish! They are kept in cages far too small for their needs,! Not given any exercise..nor allowed to be WILD !
[quote][p][bold]jdd_london[/bold] wrote: I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom. This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met. However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses. The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises. To quote her: “..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).” A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated: “A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence” They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other captive environments. The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear. Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012 It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.[/p][/quote]Rubbish! They are kept in cages far too small for their needs,! Not given any exercise..nor allowed to be WILD ! lilianc
  • Score: -8

8:39am Tue 29 Jul 14

lilianc says...

Brervixen wrote:
I drove past yesterday at around 6:30pm, just as the police arrived (I assume to break up the protest!) it was very peaceful! I can only say BLOODY GOOD JOB to the protesters, I beeped my horn and gave a thumbs up, in support. If I had time I would have stopped and joined the protest. Keeping wild animals in cages and travelling them round is abhorrent, and wickedly cruel.
I was there demonstrating at this event..and at NO TIME WHERE WE INVITED TO COME AND VISIT THE AREAS WHERE THE ANIMAL'S ARE KEPT...we were just told to watch a video on YouTube! The guy talking to us seemed not to be intelligent enough to see that captive breeding & the lack of space for large animals was detrimental to their welfare!
[quote][p][bold]Brervixen[/bold] wrote: I drove past yesterday at around 6:30pm, just as the police arrived (I assume to break up the protest!) it was very peaceful! I can only say BLOODY GOOD JOB to the protesters, I beeped my horn and gave a thumbs up, in support. If I had time I would have stopped and joined the protest. Keeping wild animals in cages and travelling them round is abhorrent, and wickedly cruel.[/p][/quote]I was there demonstrating at this event..and at NO TIME WHERE WE INVITED TO COME AND VISIT THE AREAS WHERE THE ANIMAL'S ARE KEPT...we were just told to watch a video on YouTube! The guy talking to us seemed not to be intelligent enough to see that captive breeding & the lack of space for large animals was detrimental to their welfare! lilianc
  • Score: -5

8:43am Tue 29 Jul 14

lilianc says...

jdd_london wrote:
I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom.

This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met.

However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses.

The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises.

To quote her:

“..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).”

A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated:

“A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence”

They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other
captive environments.

The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear.

Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012

It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.
Wouldn't want You or Your colleagues anywhere near an animal of mine!!I Iwas there demonstrating at this event..and at NO TIME WHERE WE INVITED TO COME AND VISIT THE AREAS WHERE THE ANIMAL'S ARE KEPT...we were just told to watch a video on YouTube! The guy talking to us seemed not to be intelligent enough to see that captive breeding & the lack of space for large animals was detrimental to their welfare!
[quote][p][bold]jdd_london[/bold] wrote: I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom. This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met. However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses. The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises. To quote her: “..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).” A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated: “A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence” They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other captive environments. The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear. Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012 It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.[/p][/quote]Wouldn't want You or Your colleagues anywhere near an animal of mine!!I Iwas there demonstrating at this event..and at NO TIME WHERE WE INVITED TO COME AND VISIT THE AREAS WHERE THE ANIMAL'S ARE KEPT...we were just told to watch a video on YouTube! The guy talking to us seemed not to be intelligent enough to see that captive breeding & the lack of space for large animals was detrimental to their welfare! lilianc
  • Score: -4

8:44am Tue 29 Jul 14

lilianc says...

Claire Fid wrote:
I'm disturbed in the way people gang up on circuses. As people we have a freedom of being able to choose what we do and how we think. We live in a democracy which supports that belief. If someone has a child and they don't look after it it is taken from them we don't gang together as a nation and say ok we will ban people from having children. Why? Cos it is not logical to do so. So why do it? Why gang up on circuses. If a animal is well looked after in some ones home people can't go and take that animal just cos they believe it's wrong to have a pet. Circuses should be able to choose wether or not they have animals. And people also have to choose wether or not they go to see a circus with animals. We don't live in a dictatorship yet do we? So let's stop acting like we do. And I suggest before you pass judgment over said circus you go and see for your self. Long live freedom of choice.
I was there demonstrating at this event..and at NO TIME WHERE WE INVITED TO COME AND VISIT THE AREAS WHERE THE ANIMAL'S ARE KEPT...we were just told to watch a video on YouTube! The guy talking to us seemed not to be intelligent enough to see that captive breeding & the lack of space for large animals was detrimental to their welfare!
[quote][p][bold]Claire Fid[/bold] wrote: I'm disturbed in the way people gang up on circuses. As people we have a freedom of being able to choose what we do and how we think. We live in a democracy which supports that belief. If someone has a child and they don't look after it it is taken from them we don't gang together as a nation and say ok we will ban people from having children. Why? Cos it is not logical to do so. So why do it? Why gang up on circuses. If a animal is well looked after in some ones home people can't go and take that animal just cos they believe it's wrong to have a pet. Circuses should be able to choose wether or not they have animals. And people also have to choose wether or not they go to see a circus with animals. We don't live in a dictatorship yet do we? So let's stop acting like we do. And I suggest before you pass judgment over said circus you go and see for your self. Long live freedom of choice.[/p][/quote]I was there demonstrating at this event..and at NO TIME WHERE WE INVITED TO COME AND VISIT THE AREAS WHERE THE ANIMAL'S ARE KEPT...we were just told to watch a video on YouTube! The guy talking to us seemed not to be intelligent enough to see that captive breeding & the lack of space for large animals was detrimental to their welfare! lilianc
  • Score: -4

11:44am Tue 29 Jul 14

pooboy says...

THEY ARE COMING TO WREXHAM SOON... I HAVE TOLD EVERYONE TO READ THE COMMENTS ON HERE...NO-ONE WILL BE GOING....EVEN MY GYPSIE FRIENDS WHO ARE SUPPORTIVE USUALLY ARE GOING TO GIVE A MISS AS THEY ARE OFF TO A HORSE RIDING FESTIVAL IN SCOTLAND......
PEOPLE POWER!!!
THEY ARE COMING TO WREXHAM SOON... I HAVE TOLD EVERYONE TO READ THE COMMENTS ON HERE...NO-ONE WILL BE GOING....EVEN MY GYPSIE FRIENDS WHO ARE SUPPORTIVE USUALLY ARE GOING TO GIVE A MISS AS THEY ARE OFF TO A HORSE RIDING FESTIVAL IN SCOTLAND...... PEOPLE POWER!!! pooboy
  • Score: -3

11:14pm Tue 29 Jul 14

InFavorOfCircus says...

pooboy wrote:
THEY ARE COMING TO WREXHAM SOON... I HAVE TOLD EVERYONE TO READ THE COMMENTS ON HERE...NO-ONE WILL BE GOING....EVEN MY GYPSIE FRIENDS WHO ARE SUPPORTIVE USUALLY ARE GOING TO GIVE A MISS AS THEY ARE OFF TO A HORSE RIDING FESTIVAL IN SCOTLAND......
PEOPLE POWER!!!
Oh....horse riding is ok? How so?
[quote][p][bold]pooboy[/bold] wrote: THEY ARE COMING TO WREXHAM SOON... I HAVE TOLD EVERYONE TO READ THE COMMENTS ON HERE...NO-ONE WILL BE GOING....EVEN MY GYPSIE FRIENDS WHO ARE SUPPORTIVE USUALLY ARE GOING TO GIVE A MISS AS THEY ARE OFF TO A HORSE RIDING FESTIVAL IN SCOTLAND...... PEOPLE POWER!!![/p][/quote]Oh....horse riding is ok? How so? InFavorOfCircus
  • Score: 2

9:40am Wed 30 Jul 14

lilianc says...

jdd_london wrote:
I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom.

This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met.

However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses.

The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises.

To quote her:

“..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).”

A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated:

“A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence”

They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other
captive environments.

The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear.

Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012

It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.
We are talking WILD ANIMALS HERE! , they are Not for human entertainment!! They cannot get the quality of life they deserve cooped up in small cages no proper exercise nor natural habitat! These animals have been dragged around the country...given to the next circus that can exploit them in a country that has NOT banned WILD ANIMALS in Circuses! Open your eyes man! I spoke to a very prominent VET the other day...she was disgusted that this was still happening!
[quote][p][bold]jdd_london[/bold] wrote: I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom. This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met. However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses. The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises. To quote her: “..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).” A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated: “A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence” They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other captive environments. The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear. Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012 It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.[/p][/quote]We are talking WILD ANIMALS HERE! , they are Not for human entertainment!! They cannot get the quality of life they deserve cooped up in small cages no proper exercise nor natural habitat! These animals have been dragged around the country...given to the next circus that can exploit them in a country that has NOT banned WILD ANIMALS in Circuses! Open your eyes man! I spoke to a very prominent VET the other day...she was disgusted that this was still happening! lilianc
  • Score: -5

4:56pm Wed 30 Jul 14

Positive thinker says...

They should take the wild lions and tigers down to Birkenhead when the bars and clubs are letting out they soon want putting back in there cages
They should take the wild lions and tigers down to Birkenhead when the bars and clubs are letting out they soon want putting back in there cages Positive thinker
  • Score: 0

3:42pm Thu 31 Jul 14

Rudebox says...

Lion 'Tamer' rigging the votes

https://www.facebook
.com/thomas.chipperf
ield
Lion 'Tamer' rigging the votes https://www.facebook .com/thomas.chipperf ield Rudebox
  • Score: -3

4:41pm Thu 31 Jul 14

lilianc says...

Liamptk wrote:
I've just been down to have a 'peaceful' discussion about the immoral and old fashioned parade currently taking place.

The employees there attempted to ATTACK me with a CHAIR and hurled abuse for my disagreeing with the proceedings.

If the Wirral Globe would like a reporting on this, I have video evidence of the aggression that took place along with all of the conversation.

I personally will not stand for this happening on my door step and shall be arranging peaceful protests to drain any funding this freak show may receive from uneducated attendees. If anyone else feels as strongly, contact me on 07505 843804.
this is disgraceful.....why hasnt the Wirral Globe taken you up on the Offer? we have been there each performance and no reporters have been there to talk to us!
[quote][p][bold]Liamptk[/bold] wrote: I've just been down to have a 'peaceful' discussion about the immoral and old fashioned parade currently taking place. The employees there attempted to ATTACK me with a CHAIR and hurled abuse for my disagreeing with the proceedings. If the Wirral Globe would like a reporting on this, I have video evidence of the aggression that took place along with all of the conversation. I personally will not stand for this happening on my door step and shall be arranging peaceful protests to drain any funding this freak show may receive from uneducated attendees. If anyone else feels as strongly, contact me on 07505 843804.[/p][/quote]this is disgraceful.....why hasnt the Wirral Globe taken you up on the Offer? we have been there each performance and no reporters have been there to talk to us! lilianc
  • Score: 0

4:46pm Thu 31 Jul 14

lilianc says...

we KNOW THE CIRCUS PEOPLE are rigging the votes!
ive seen it on facebook! they think we are stupid but they are the idiots..... Chipperfield are connected to this circus.... the same family that were taken to court for the CRUELTY to a Chimpanzee!
we KNOW THE CIRCUS PEOPLE are rigging the votes! ive seen it on facebook! they think we are stupid but they are the idiots..... Chipperfield are connected to this circus.... the same family that were taken to court for the CRUELTY to a Chimpanzee! lilianc
  • Score: -6

8:16pm Fri 1 Aug 14

Roath says...

I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....
I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought..... Roath
  • Score: 5

11:25am Mon 4 Aug 14

lilianc says...

Roath wrote:
I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....
ANSWER THIS THEN!
http://www.express.c
o.uk/news/nature/486
002/Shock-video-Tige
rs-caged-pacing-in-c
ells-in-UK-circus
[quote][p][bold]Roath[/bold] wrote: I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....[/p][/quote]ANSWER THIS THEN! http://www.express.c o.uk/news/nature/486 002/Shock-video-Tige rs-caged-pacing-in-c ells-in-UK-circus lilianc
  • Score: -1

11:32am Mon 4 Aug 14

lilianc says...

Roath wrote:
I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....
Just so you KNOW some..members of the protest are Zoologist trained..I.myself went to Thailand and while there I worked with the Elephant Sanctuary in Chaing mai...where we were Educated in how Circuses ALL OVER THE WORLD train animals! I have written to the WORLD RENOWNED Wild Cat Association BORN FREE...and they are dismayed at Jolleys Circus for using Wild Animals for Human entertainment!
[quote][p][bold]Roath[/bold] wrote: I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....[/p][/quote]Just so you KNOW some..members of the protest are Zoologist trained..I.myself went to Thailand and while there I worked with the Elephant Sanctuary in Chaing mai...where we were Educated in how Circuses ALL OVER THE WORLD train animals! I have written to the WORLD RENOWNED Wild Cat Association BORN FREE...and they are dismayed at Jolleys Circus for using Wild Animals for Human entertainment! lilianc
  • Score: 1

11:42am Mon 4 Aug 14

lilianc says...

Roath wrote:
I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....
Thankyou for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus.

The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensing etc
read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/
campaigns/zoo-check/
circuses-performing-
animals/circus-news/
article/? no_cache=1&tx_ttnews
%5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force.

Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again.

Kind regards
[quote][p][bold]Roath[/bold] wrote: I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....[/p][/quote]Thankyou for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus. The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensing etc read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/ campaigns/zoo-check/ circuses-performing- animals/circus-news/ article/? no_cache=1&tx_ttnews %5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force. Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again. Kind regards lilianc
  • Score: 1

11:46am Mon 4 Aug 14

lilianc says...

InFavorOfCircus wrote:
I am disgusted by the animal rights businesses crying wolf all the time! I believe that the circus animals enjoy longer lives than the few remaining animals in the "wild". The choice - to attend a circus or not - should be that of the people. Those who don't like it - stay home!
Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus.

The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not.
read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/
campaigns/zoo-check/
circuses-performing-
animals/circus-news/
article/? no_cache=1&tx_ttnews
%5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force.

Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards
[quote][p][bold]InFavorOfCircus[/bold] wrote: I am disgusted by the animal rights businesses crying wolf all the time! I believe that the circus animals enjoy longer lives than the few remaining animals in the "wild". The choice - to attend a circus or not - should be that of the people. Those who don't like it - stay home![/p][/quote]Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus. The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not. read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/ campaigns/zoo-check/ circuses-performing- animals/circus-news/ article/? no_cache=1&tx_ttnews %5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force. Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again. Kind Regards lilianc
  • Score: 1

11:47am Mon 4 Aug 14

lilianc says...

lilianc wrote:
Roath wrote:
I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....
Just so you KNOW some..members of the protest are Zoologist trained..I.myself went to Thailand and while there I worked with the Elephant Sanctuary in Chaing mai...where we were Educated in how Circuses ALL OVER THE WORLD train animals! I have written to the WORLD RENOWNED Wild Cat Association BORN FREE...and they are dismayed at Jolleys Circus for using Wild Animals for Human entertainment!
Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus.

The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not.
read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/
campaigns/zoo-check/
circuses-performing-
animals/circus-news/
article/? no_cache=1&tx_ttnews
%5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force.

Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards
[quote][p][bold]lilianc[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Roath[/bold] wrote: I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....[/p][/quote]Just so you KNOW some..members of the protest are Zoologist trained..I.myself went to Thailand and while there I worked with the Elephant Sanctuary in Chaing mai...where we were Educated in how Circuses ALL OVER THE WORLD train animals! I have written to the WORLD RENOWNED Wild Cat Association BORN FREE...and they are dismayed at Jolleys Circus for using Wild Animals for Human entertainment![/p][/quote]Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus. The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not. read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/ campaigns/zoo-check/ circuses-performing- animals/circus-news/ article/? no_cache=1&tx_ttnews %5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force. Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again. Kind Regards lilianc
  • Score: 0

11:48am Mon 4 Aug 14

lilianc says...

Roath wrote:
I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....
Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus.

The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not.
read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/
campaigns/zoo-check/
circuses-performing-
animals/circus-news/
article/? no_cache=1&tx_ttnews
%5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force.

Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards
[quote][p][bold]Roath[/bold] wrote: I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....[/p][/quote]Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus. The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not. read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/ campaigns/zoo-check/ circuses-performing- animals/circus-news/ article/? no_cache=1&tx_ttnews %5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force. Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again. Kind Regards lilianc
  • Score: -1

11:49am Mon 4 Aug 14

lilianc says...

lilianc wrote:
jdd_london wrote:
I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom.

This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met.

However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses.

The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises.

To quote her:

“..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).”

A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated:

“A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence”

They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other
captive environments.

The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear.

Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012

It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.
We are talking WILD ANIMALS HERE! , they are Not for human entertainment!! They cannot get the quality of life they deserve cooped up in small cages no proper exercise nor natural habitat! These animals have been dragged around the country...given to the next circus that can exploit them in a country that has NOT banned WILD ANIMALS in Circuses! Open your eyes man! I spoke to a very prominent VET the other day...she was disgusted that this was still happening!
Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus.

The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not.
read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/
campaigns/zoo-check/
circuses-performing-
animals/circus-news/
article/? no_cache=1&tx_ttnews
%5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force.

Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards
[quote][p][bold]lilianc[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]jdd_london[/bold] wrote: I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom. This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met. However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses. The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises. To quote her: “..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).” A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated: “A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence” They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other captive environments. The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear. Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012 It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.[/p][/quote]We are talking WILD ANIMALS HERE! , they are Not for human entertainment!! They cannot get the quality of life they deserve cooped up in small cages no proper exercise nor natural habitat! These animals have been dragged around the country...given to the next circus that can exploit them in a country that has NOT banned WILD ANIMALS in Circuses! Open your eyes man! I spoke to a very prominent VET the other day...she was disgusted that this was still happening![/p][/quote]Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus. The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not. read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/ campaigns/zoo-check/ circuses-performing- animals/circus-news/ article/? no_cache=1&tx_ttnews %5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force. Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again. Kind Regards lilianc
  • Score: 1

11:50am Mon 4 Aug 14

lilianc says...

Roath wrote:
I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....
Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus.

The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not.
read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/
campaigns/zoo-check/
circuses-performing-
animals/circus-news/
article/? no_cache=1&tx_ttnews
%5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force.

Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards
[quote][p][bold]Roath[/bold] wrote: I feel deeply saddened by some of these comments on here. It is such a shame some feel not only the need but the right to comment on something they know nothing much about, unless I'm mistaken and as I have spent a year living with various animal shows around the country seen it first hand how these people in question treat their 'pets' as this is what they are to them, they are born into captivity so don't know any different to a dog or cat, which were at 1 time also 'wild animals' These animals at each and every ground they go to have welfare checks. There are some cases of neglect that make the press but are so few but some feel the need to tar everyone with the same brush from these stories and unfortunately end up bigger than they are. Whilst I was doing my research year in the shows, there was 1 protest of animal rights in particular where 1 protester had left their dog in the car in the heat and it sadly died, very ironic! I wonder why these people instead of protesting don't take this time to ask these circuses to see first hand how the animals are cared for?! I could never even contemplate protesting about something I haven't had first hand experience of and just go on news or hearsay.... Food for thought.....[/p][/quote]Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus. The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not. read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/ campaigns/zoo-check/ circuses-performing- animals/circus-news/ article/? no_cache=1&tx_ttnews %5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force. Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again. Kind Regards lilianc
  • Score: 1

2:54pm Thu 7 Aug 14

Circus lover says...

lilianc wrote:
lilianc wrote:
jdd_london wrote:
I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom.

This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met.

However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses.

The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises.

To quote her:

“..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).”

A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated:

“A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence”

They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other
captive environments.

The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear.

Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012

It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.
We are talking WILD ANIMALS HERE! , they are Not for human entertainment!! They cannot get the quality of life they deserve cooped up in small cages no proper exercise nor natural habitat! These animals have been dragged around the country...given to the next circus that can exploit them in a country that has NOT banned WILD ANIMALS in Circuses! Open your eyes man! I spoke to a very prominent VET the other day...she was disgusted that this was still happening!
Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus.

The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not.
read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/

campaigns/zoo-check/

circuses-performing-

animals/circus-news/

article/? no_cache=1&tx_tt
news
%5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force.

Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards
Ah born free eh? because they know so much about animal welfare - I take it you know what happened to Elsa the Lion that the whole Born free foundation and the film of the same name was based on - Have a read and see for yourselves

http://elmtreeforge.
blogspot.co.uk/2006/
07/remember-elsa-lio
n.html
[quote][p][bold]lilianc[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lilianc[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]jdd_london[/bold] wrote: I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom. This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met. However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses. The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises. To quote her: “..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).” A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated: “A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence” They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other captive environments. The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear. Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012 It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.[/p][/quote]We are talking WILD ANIMALS HERE! , they are Not for human entertainment!! They cannot get the quality of life they deserve cooped up in small cages no proper exercise nor natural habitat! These animals have been dragged around the country...given to the next circus that can exploit them in a country that has NOT banned WILD ANIMALS in Circuses! Open your eyes man! I spoke to a very prominent VET the other day...she was disgusted that this was still happening![/p][/quote]Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus. The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not. read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/ campaigns/zoo-check/ circuses-performing- animals/circus-news/ article/? no_cache=1&tx_tt news %5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force. Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again. Kind Regards[/p][/quote]Ah born free eh? because they know so much about animal welfare - I take it you know what happened to Elsa the Lion that the whole Born free foundation and the film of the same name was based on - Have a read and see for yourselves http://elmtreeforge. blogspot.co.uk/2006/ 07/remember-elsa-lio n.html Circus lover
  • Score: -1

5:36pm Thu 7 Aug 14

lilianc says...

Circus lover wrote:
lilianc wrote:
lilianc wrote:
jdd_london wrote:
I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom.

This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met.

However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses.

The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises.

To quote her:

“..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).”

A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated:

“A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence”

They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other
captive environments.

The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear.

Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012

It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.
We are talking WILD ANIMALS HERE! , they are Not for human entertainment!! They cannot get the quality of life they deserve cooped up in small cages no proper exercise nor natural habitat! These animals have been dragged around the country...given to the next circus that can exploit them in a country that has NOT banned WILD ANIMALS in Circuses! Open your eyes man! I spoke to a very prominent VET the other day...she was disgusted that this was still happening!
Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus.

The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not.
read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/


campaigns/zoo-check/


circuses-performing-


animals/circus-news/


article/? no_cache=1&tx_tt

news
%5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force.

Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards
Ah born free eh? because they know so much about animal welfare - I take it you know what happened to Elsa the Lion that the whole Born free foundation and the film of the same name was based on - Have a read and see for yourselves

http://elmtreeforge.

blogspot.co.uk/2006/

07/remember-elsa-lio

n.html
so what is that supposed to say!? the Lions Killed someone! .....doh! what are they supposed to do shake their hand??
as someone quoted
''It is not the lions fault. that humans are keep taking there land and there is no room for them.
The real problem is us we do not have nay respect for lions or any other animals. They have every right to be here and to be free.
I cant see why you had to write this story.About elsa the lion she was doing what any lion woud do to feed her young cubs when she can not hunt,on her own and you shot her. Shame on you''
[quote][p][bold]Circus lover[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lilianc[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lilianc[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]jdd_london[/bold] wrote: I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom. This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met. However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses. The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises. To quote her: “..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).” A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated: “A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence” They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other captive environments. The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear. Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012 It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.[/p][/quote]We are talking WILD ANIMALS HERE! , they are Not for human entertainment!! They cannot get the quality of life they deserve cooped up in small cages no proper exercise nor natural habitat! These animals have been dragged around the country...given to the next circus that can exploit them in a country that has NOT banned WILD ANIMALS in Circuses! Open your eyes man! I spoke to a very prominent VET the other day...she was disgusted that this was still happening![/p][/quote]Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus. The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not. read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/ campaigns/zoo-check/ circuses-performing- animals/circus-news/ article/? no_cache=1&tx_tt news %5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force. Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again. Kind Regards[/p][/quote]Ah born free eh? because they know so much about animal welfare - I take it you know what happened to Elsa the Lion that the whole Born free foundation and the film of the same name was based on - Have a read and see for yourselves http://elmtreeforge. blogspot.co.uk/2006/ 07/remember-elsa-lio n.html[/p][/quote]so what is that supposed to say!? the Lions Killed someone! .....doh! what are they supposed to do shake their hand?? as someone quoted ''It is not the lions fault. that humans are keep taking there land and there is no room for them. The real problem is us we do not have nay respect for lions or any other animals. They have every right to be here and to be free. I cant see why you had to write this story.About elsa the lion she was doing what any lion woud do to feed her young cubs when she can not hunt,on her own and you shot her. Shame on you'' lilianc
  • Score: 2

11:54am Fri 8 Aug 14

lilianc says...

lilianc wrote:
Circus lover wrote:
lilianc wrote:
lilianc wrote:
jdd_london wrote:
I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom.

This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met.

However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses.

The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises.

To quote her:

“..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).”

A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated:

“A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence”

They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other
captive environments.

The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear.

Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012

It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.
We are talking WILD ANIMALS HERE! , they are Not for human entertainment!! They cannot get the quality of life they deserve cooped up in small cages no proper exercise nor natural habitat! These animals have been dragged around the country...given to the next circus that can exploit them in a country that has NOT banned WILD ANIMALS in Circuses! Open your eyes man! I spoke to a very prominent VET the other day...she was disgusted that this was still happening!
Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus.

The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not.
read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/



campaigns/zoo-check/



circuses-performing-



animals/circus-news/



article/? no_cache=1&tx_tt


news
%5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force.

Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again.

Kind Regards
Ah born free eh? because they know so much about animal welfare - I take it you know what happened to Elsa the Lion that the whole Born free foundation and the film of the same name was based on - Have a read and see for yourselves

http://elmtreeforge.


blogspot.co.uk/2006/


07/remember-elsa-lio


n.html
so what is that supposed to say!? the Lions Killed someone! .....doh! what are they supposed to do shake their hand??
as someone quoted
''It is not the lions fault. that humans are keep taking there land and there is no room for them.
The real problem is us we do not have nay respect for lions or any other animals. They have every right to be here and to be free.
I cant see why you had to write this story.About elsa the lion she was doing what any lion woud do to feed her young cubs when she can not hunt,on her own and you shot her. Shame on you''
re Jdd_London..... ''Zoo Fellowship is simply a type of membership people may purchase from us- it does not mean that they are an employee or affiliated to the Zoo in any official capacity,''
....we could all buy a Zoo Fellowship!
[quote][p][bold]lilianc[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Circus lover[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lilianc[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lilianc[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]jdd_london[/bold] wrote: I have been involved in the care of animals for over 40 years in zoos and wildlife parks both in the United Kingdom and Europe and am currently an international zoological consultant and a Fellow of the Zoological Society of London. It has always been my contention that circuses should have regulation of their care and handling of animals as is the case in many European countries that now includes the United Kingdom. This now includes the England with the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012. This requires specific welfare requirements, inspections and licensing to display these animals. Inspections are periodic and can be unannounced; licenses can be revoked and fines imposed if standards are not met. However, I have never supported a ban of animals in circuses, as from the scientific evidence (and from personal observation) this seems both unnecessary and unfair to responsible circuses that do take their welfare obligations towards their animals seriously.There have been two reports commission on the welfare of animals in UK circuses. The first was undertaken by my colleague Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington and published in 1990 with the financial support of the RSPCA and The Universities Federation of Animal Welfare (UFAW). Dr Kiley-Worthington spent some 18 months studying all aspects of animals in circuses, including making detailed quantitative recordings of their behaviour for over 3000 animal hours. Her conclusions were that circuses were by their nature not cruel and that any deficits in the husbandry of the animals within these environments could be addressed without the need of banning such enterprises. To quote her: “..there is no reason why circus training, any more than any other animal training, of its nature causes suffering and distress to the animals, or should be considered ethically unacceptable" (Kiley-Worthington, 1990).” A further circus animal welfare report was commissioned by the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2007 and stated: “A ban on using wild animals in travelling circuses because of welfare concerns is not supported by the scientific evidence” They concluded that there was "little evidence" that the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses was any better or worse than that of animals kept in other captive environments. The recent muted government ban was the result of pressure from animal-rights groups to whom the scientific evidence mean nothing. As stated above, the actual scientific research does not support this ban and the government made this very clear. Quote: "...The 2007 Radford Report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. That position has not changed..." WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Minister of State for Agriculture and Food (James Paice) 1 March 2012 It certainly is right that people should be concerned about the welfare of animals in the care of humans but as stated these concerns need to be supported by proper objective research.[/p][/quote]We are talking WILD ANIMALS HERE! , they are Not for human entertainment!! They cannot get the quality of life they deserve cooped up in small cages no proper exercise nor natural habitat! These animals have been dragged around the country...given to the next circus that can exploit them in a country that has NOT banned WILD ANIMALS in Circuses! Open your eyes man! I spoke to a very prominent VET the other day...she was disgusted that this was still happening![/p][/quote]Thankyou you for your email with info about Jolley’s Circus. The Government introduced a Circus Licensing Scheme which was temporarily put into place until the proposed Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses in England was supposed to come into force from 1 st December 2015. Currently the regulations require all operators of travelling circuses in England which use wild animals to be licensed. Licensed circuses are required to receive regular inspections to check compliance with welfare standards, so this will be the ‘certificates’ the circus worker you spoke to was referring to. We obviously don’t believe that the welfare of these animals can be provided for in a travelling circus environment, licensed or not. read more at www.bornfree.org.uk/ campaigns/zoo-check/ circuses-performing- animals/circus-news/ article/? no_cache=1&tx_tt news %5Btt_news%5D=1603. Rest assured Born Free is continuing to do all we can to try and make sure that the ban comes into force. Thank you for making a stand for animals in circuses and please don’t hesitate to contact us again. Kind Regards[/p][/quote]Ah born free eh? because they know so much about animal welfare - I take it you know what happened to Elsa the Lion that the whole Born free foundation and the film of the same name was based on - Have a read and see for yourselves http://elmtreeforge. blogspot.co.uk/2006/ 07/remember-elsa-lio n.html[/p][/quote]so what is that supposed to say!? the Lions Killed someone! .....doh! what are they supposed to do shake their hand?? as someone quoted ''It is not the lions fault. that humans are keep taking there land and there is no room for them. The real problem is us we do not have nay respect for lions or any other animals. They have every right to be here and to be free. I cant see why you had to write this story.About elsa the lion she was doing what any lion woud do to feed her young cubs when she can not hunt,on her own and you shot her. Shame on you''[/p][/quote]re Jdd_London..... ''Zoo Fellowship is simply a type of membership people may purchase from us- it does not mean that they are an employee or affiliated to the Zoo in any official capacity,'' ....we could all buy a Zoo Fellowship! lilianc
  • Score: 0

9:18pm Thu 21 Aug 14

lilianc says...

InFavorOfCircus wrote:
pooboy wrote:
THEY ARE COMING TO WREXHAM SOON... I HAVE TOLD EVERYONE TO READ THE COMMENTS ON HERE...NO-ONE WILL BE GOING....EVEN MY GYPSIE FRIENDS WHO ARE SUPPORTIVE USUALLY ARE GOING TO GIVE A MISS AS THEY ARE OFF TO A HORSE RIDING FESTIVAL IN SCOTLAND......
PEOPLE POWER!!!
Oh....horse riding is ok? How so?
Ooh what part of Wrexham??
[quote][p][bold]InFavorOfCircus[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]pooboy[/bold] wrote: THEY ARE COMING TO WREXHAM SOON... I HAVE TOLD EVERYONE TO READ THE COMMENTS ON HERE...NO-ONE WILL BE GOING....EVEN MY GYPSIE FRIENDS WHO ARE SUPPORTIVE USUALLY ARE GOING TO GIVE A MISS AS THEY ARE OFF TO A HORSE RIDING FESTIVAL IN SCOTLAND...... PEOPLE POWER!!![/p][/quote]Oh....horse riding is ok? How so?[/p][/quote]Ooh what part of Wrexham?? lilianc
  • Score: 0

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